Farewell sex-sepoy

No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by deleted_user0 »

Kaiserklein wrote:The problem is that skirms don't actually counter sepoys when sepoys get in range. I mean, a sepoy and a skirm kill each other in 7 shots, if no hit-and-running, and a skirm is even slightly more expensive. That's not really what I'd call a good counter. And all other musketeer-type units being inferior to the sepoy, you can't really beat them in a musk war. So it's not about how hard hit-and-running with skirms is, just about how gay of a unit the sepoy is
Good that they nerfed that shit.

What's the difference with brit musk? They are even more cost efficient age 3.
And think about ashi.. They even outrun skirms

The reason people spam sepoys is that indian cav is extremely bad...
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by momuuu »

Yeah exactly, why aren't musks in general then too strong?
User avatar
Italy gamevideo113
Howdah
Posts: 1899
Joined: Apr 26, 2017
ESO: gamevideo113

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by gamevideo113 »

Jerom wrote:Yeah exactly, why aren't musks in general then too strong?

To be fair @Goodspeed has been making this point for a long time
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019 Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
User avatar
Malaysia Aizamk
Pro Player
ESOC WarChiefs Classic 2017
Posts: 1459
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
Location: ded

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

  • Quote

Post by Aizamk »

oranges.
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by deleted_user0 »

Aizamk wrote:https://imgur.com/GnrbMMa

https://imgur.com/hPkhmMI

Same ROF, it's not a big deal
You can nerf that and give HP back
User avatar
India rsy
Jaeger
Donator 01
Posts: 2202
Joined: Feb 27, 2015
Location: Lashka

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by rsy »

somppukunkku wrote:
deleted_user wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:I find it tragic that you get outplayed by somppu in eso

Image (im not even gud)
somppukunkku wrote:and outliked by somppu in esoc

o rly

I was drunk

You remember how I beat your Port playing ass with flails while I was drunk soppy
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10282
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by Kaiserklein »

somppukunkku wrote:What's the difference with brit musk? They are even more cost efficient age 3.
And think about ashi.. They even outrun skirms

The reason people spam sepoys is that indian cav is extremely bad...

The difference is that sepoys are way better. Maybe brit musks with 3 upgrades are more cost-efficient, but since when do you get that in 1v1 anyway? Obviously what matters most of the time is the age 2 sepoys, and those guys are clearly the best musk you can get at that point. They're probably worse than double-carded brit musks, but you need to invest 2 cards for that (sepoys also get +10% hp boost for a small cost btw), also since when brits aren't OP anyway?

Ashis do have that sweet speed bonus, but their stats suck ass early on. Sepoys are slightly cheaper, have +20 hp, +1 attack at range and +5 attack in melee... Not even close tbh. And yeah later on ashis outscale, but that's another story, it's the whole japan thing.

Of course sowars are trash, but if sepoys weren't so op and easy to mass and micro you would see much more gurkha/zamb stuff... Let's face it, india is probably the civ with the most various possible units composition in colo, but you still see 80% of india games being a dumb sepoy spam, just because that unit is dumb.

Ah and I edited the post you quoted, probably too late for you to see it, explaining why sepoys are better than musks.

Jerom wrote:Yeah exactly, why aren't musks in general then too strong?

Well in age 2 they probably are... But against age 3 skirms they usually suck because they melt at range. Sepoys are just musks on steroids.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

  • Quote

Post by deleted_user0 »

If you nerf sepoy, then sowar buff is a nobrainer honestly. But its just meh, because it will basically make it just like musk huss.

The 3x tc shot is a false excuse tbh, you can easily keep your explorer out of sepoy range and pick off the low hp sepoy with explorer, or in worst case, vils or cdb.

All nerfing sepoy does is that we will see even more mu's be about skir goon. Just so boring
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by deleted_user0 »

umeu wrote:If you nerf sepoy, then sowar buff is a nobrainer honestly. But its just meh, because it will basically make it just like musk huss.

The 3x tc shot is a false excuse tbh, you can easily keep your explorer out of sepoy range and pick off the low hp sepoy with explorer, or in worst case, vils or cdb.

True. The shitness of sowar has created this sepoy situation. They are so bad.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9730
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by Garja »

Sowar are not trash. 30% rr, 7.25 speed and x1.5 vs RI make them good at what they are supposed to. Bear in mind thye cost 80f 80g so they are supposed to be like 3/4 of a huss but in fact some stats are straight better than huss.
And anyway sepoy are still the best musk in 90% of real games so stop crying.
Image Image Image
User avatar
France bwinner
Howdah
Donator 01
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mar 14, 2016
ESO: bwinner

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by bwinner »

Jerom wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Reminder: Sepoy: 190hp, 25 att
Musket*1.2 = 180hp, 27.6 att

Upgraded musket fights good vs skirm if you micro good. Like micro god somppu does.

This is actually hilarious to me. Due to people whining I've always thought sepoy were actually really strong but they're clearly not that insane at all.
[\quote]
That's stupide, think about 2 units with 2HP and one attack vs one unit with 4 HP and two attack :
After 1 round : one unit with 2HP and one attack vs one unit with 2 HP and 2 attack
After rounds : the best unit won ! Crazy isn't it ? You can't just multiply stats ! And there isn't even overkill involved. Multiply stat would work if soldier were continue (i.e. you can't have 0.5 soldier after 1 round). But since they are discret, bigger units are more costeffectiv. That's why sepoy are better than regular musk. I also tested it vs several units and sepoy are always really more costeffectiv than musk.


By the way you are really a joke : when dutch bank went from 300w/350f to 350w/300f you said it was à huge change that would make dutch trash, and now you are with the people that say 80w->50w for house doesn't matter, whearas it's obviously far more important^^
Image
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

  • Quote

Post by deleted_user0 »

Garja wrote:Sowar are not trash. 30% rr, 7.25 speed and x1.5 vs RI make them good at what they are supposed to. Bear in mind thye cost 80f 80g so they are supposed to be like 3/4 of a huss but in fact some stats are straight better than huss.
And anyway sepoy are still the best musk in 90% of real games so stop crying.


Ye on paper steppe don't have bad stats either.

Sowar are just subpar, because in musk huss, the role of cav is not just to kill li. Its to tank while snaring. And u know this very well.

Its funny people are crying and nerfing a unit for a civ that didnt cause issues. Its like nerfing foresprowlers now, cause theyre op, even though iro is at best a mediocre civ on patch lol

If diversity is now a patch priority, thats great. But why arent we seeing bow pike, grenadiers, samurai, rajputs and halbediers getting buffed, instead of making the game even more stale by everything just being about skirm goon melee cav in every mu.

If you think sowar are ok, the a rajput cost reduction isthe next obvious thing.
User avatar
Brazil look
Howdah
Posts: 1417
Joined: Jun 4, 2015
ESO: LoOk_tOm
Location: Brasil, UK

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by look »

FUCKKKKKKKK RIP MY SEPOYS MY JANS.. THIS REALLY SHIT..
Kaiser sucks
Garja Noob
grunt the best
Kickass God
BSOP OP
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5488
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by Mitoe »

Jerom wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:Reminder: Sepoy: 190hp, 25 att
Musket*1.2 = 180hp, 27.6 att

Upgraded musket fights good vs skirm if you micro good. Like micro god somppu does.

This is actually hilarious to me. Due to people whining I've always thought sepoy were actually really strong but they're clearly not that insane at all.

He forgot to include (or purposely omitted) the 10% hp sepoy get from British consulate, and if you're not on British consulate by the time someone is fortress and has a skirm mass then you're probably going to lose anyway.

Anyway, I'm not sure the sepoy nerf was strictly necessary either (would have preferred a cost change, +5f or +5c), but don't understand why everyone is upset about skirm/goon? Most civs don't even use that unit composition.

China, Spain, German, Japan, Aztec, Russia, British, Otto. That's over half of the civs, and none of these civs focus on or use skirm/goon compositions, even Sioux arguably rarely uses a skirm/goon composition. Sounds to me like people dislike skirmisher-type units in particular, not skirm/goon unit compositions.
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8050
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by Hazza54321 »

well sioux with the wakina buff will skirm goon more, german skirm br or skirm ww basically the same thing, brit lb goon basically the same thing, jans being nerfed i dont doubt people doing more abus cav archer builds.
just nerfing other styles, as mentioned by umeu and many others
User avatar
European Union Asateo
Dragoon
Posts: 426
Joined: Jun 14, 2017
ESO: Asateo
Location: Belgium

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by Asateo »

umeu wrote:If diversity is now a patch priority, thats great. But why arent we seeing bow pike, grenadiers, samurai, rajputs and halbediers getting buffed, instead of making the game even more stale by everything just being about skirm goon melee cav in every mu.

If you think sowar are ok, the a rajput cost reduction isthe next obvious thing.



Agreed!!!

So many units could be made viable, if diversity is really what is wanted.
To see a world in a grain of saind, A heaven in a wild flower
Hold infinity in the palm of you hand, And eternity in an hour
- William Blake, Auguries of Innocence
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5488
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by Mitoe »

Hazza54321 wrote:well sioux with the wakina buff will skirm goon more, german skirm br or skirm ww basically the same thing, brit lb goon basically the same thing, jans being nerfed i dont doubt people doing more abus cav archer builds

Except those comps have different playstyles? You can't exactly kite with skirm/ww or longbow/goon the same way you do with other skirm/goon compositions. You need to include other units to tank/peel for your skirms/longbows.

I understand the Sioux thing, but really what more do you want there? People have complained that wakina are too weak because of their range, would you rather risk breaking bow riders again? Or some other unit?

As for jans, I fail to see how watching people perform jan all-ins where one person is literally just garrisoned in their TC all game or literally can't kill a single unit kiting is fun to watch or play.

Everyone complains about skirm/goon, but you nerf skirms or buff musks and you just end up with musk wars in all ages; not to mention how the game would become especially skewed towards Colonial play, neglecting the other 3 ages and missing out on a lot more content and unit diversity, how is that any better for the game?

Asateo wrote:
umeu wrote:If diversity is now a patch priority, thats great. But why arent we seeing bow pike, grenadiers, samurai, rajputs and halbediers getting buffed, instead of making the game even more stale by everything just being about skirm goon melee cav in every mu.

If you think sowar are ok, the a rajput cost reduction isthe next obvious thing.



Agreed!!!

So many units could be made viable, if diversity is really what is wanted.

You have to take babysteps with those sorts of changes. That's a long list of changes with potentially game-breaking consequences.
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8050
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by Hazza54321 »

Mitoe wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:well sioux with the wakina buff will skirm goon more, german skirm br or skirm ww basically the same thing, brit lb goon basically the same thing, jans being nerfed i dont doubt people doing more abus cav archer builds

Except those comps have different playstyles? You can't exactly kite with skirm/ww or longbow/goon the same way you do with other skirm/goon compositions. You need to include other units to tank/peel for your skirms/longbows.

I understand the Sioux thing, but really what more do you want there? People have complained that wakina are too weak because of their range, would you rather risk breaking bow riders again? Or some other unit?

As for jans, I fail to see how watching people perform jan all-ins where one person is literally just garrisoned in their TC all game or literally can't kill a single unit kiting is fun to watch or play.

Everyone complains about skirm/goon, but you nerf skirms or buff musks and you just end up with musk wars in all ages; not to mention how the game would become especially skewed towards Colonial play, neglecting the other 3 ages and missing out on a lot more content and unit diversity, how is that any better for the game?

Asateo wrote:
umeu wrote:If diversity is now a patch priority, thats great. But why arent we seeing bow pike, grenadiers, samurai, rajputs and halbediers getting buffed, instead of making the game even more stale by everything just being about skirm goon melee cav in every mu.

If you think sowar are ok, the a rajput cost reduction isthe next obvious thing.



Agreed!!!

So many units could be made viable, if diversity is really what is wanted.

You have to take babysteps with those sorts of changes. That's a long list of changes with potentially game-breaking consequences.

ofc you can kite with ww skirm, lb goon yes its a little different and the least bland of the 2 because its not all about outmassing in skirm. my point is age 3 wars is just massing the most of one unit (skirm) whilst having enough goons to not get surprised, and this happens in literally 90% of ep games because the most played civs tend to be the ones revolved skirm goon because they easily outclass the other civs
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5488
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by Mitoe »

Debatable. Disregarding that, so then to you the problem is that no one plays those civs that I listed?

Again, though, I feel like having people mass musketeers instead of skirmishers like everyone seems to want would be much less enjoyable.
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8050
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by Hazza54321 »

Mitoe wrote:Debatable. Disregarding that, so then to you the problem is that no one plays those civs that I listed?

Again, though, I feel like having people mass musketeers instead of skirmishers like everyone seems to want would be much less enjoyable.

im saying skirm goon is too bland and doesnt require any thought process at all. and its not about mass musketeers at all, theres no colonial games and theres no age 2 vs age3 games anymore either which were common and interesting to watch play out. Also the intense micro vs azzy, russia, otto, india rush, despite being kinda easy mode for them, it was fun to try to micro and outplay vs it
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by momuuu »

Mitoe wrote:
Jerom wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:Reminder: Sepoy: 190hp, 25 att
Musket*1.2 = 180hp, 27.6 att

Upgraded musket fights good vs skirm if you micro good. Like micro god somppu does.

This is actually hilarious to me. Due to people whining I've always thought sepoy were actually really strong but they're clearly not that insane at all.

He forgot to include (or purposely omitted) the 10% hp sepoy get from British consulate, and if you're not on British consulate by the time someone is fortress and has a skirm mass then you're probably going to lose anyway.

Anyway, I'm not sure the sepoy nerf was strictly necessary either (would have preferred a cost change, +5f or +5c), but don't understand why everyone is upset about skirm/goon? Most civs don't even use that unit composition.

China, Spain, German, Japan, Aztec, Russia, British, Otto. That's over half of the civs, and none of these civs focus on or use skirm/goon compositions, even Sioux arguably rarely uses a skirm/goon composition. Sounds to me like people dislike skirmisher-type units in particular, not skirm/goon unit compositions.

Arent gukrha with 10% hp good too? And skirm goon style just means the generic boring nr10 that ep tends to be.
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5488
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by Mitoe »

@Hazza54321

You're going to have a provide an explanation for the "bland" and "doesn't require any thought process at all" arguments.


The reason people aren't playing Colonial games anymore has nothing to do with the fact that skirm/goon is too strong or anything like that. It's simply because the maps have more resources now, allowing you to remain safely in your base for a longer period of time; rendering Colonial contain strategies rather weak, as the defender will have plenty of time to tech up to Fortress and break the contain.

And, as you may be aware, there are actually plenty of maps in the map pool that promote exactly the kind of play you desire (e.g. Cascade Range, Pampas Sierras, Bengal, and Klondike, to name a few), and yet no one seems to want to play on them. Why not? Maybe because the types of strategies these maps tend to promote are unfun and are arguably easier to perform, making it difficult for a skilled player to differentiate themselves from an unskilled player (the all-in type strategies you want so badly), and also because even though everyone claims to want change, they don't want to actually have to play differently or invest time into learning new styles of play.

The game would actually be a lot more diverse if you all didn't insist on playing on the exact same type of map with the exact same type of resources every single game, what a shocker :O



Now if you want to also promote different styles of play on maps that would typically cater towards boomy playstyles for example, you could look at a simple change like changing the Fortress politician age time: something I've wanted to change for quite some time.

It currently takes longer to age to Fortress than it does to any other age (110 seconds vs 90 seconds), unless you fast age of course (40 seconds). The key to making Colonial play more viable while also keeping Fortress as a solid option, you'd have to either increase the politician reward (e.g. 6 skirm > 7 skirm), decrease the age time (110 seconds > 100 or 90 seconds), and/or increase the age time for the fast age politician (40 seconds > 45 or 50 seconds).

This would make choosing which politician you age with a lot more important, and also opens more windows for punishment while still giving players a chance to outplay their opponent (or follow them up to fortress if their timing fails!).

Note that this change also improves current non-meta civs (Japan, India, China, Aztec, for example), while potentially weakening those current meta civs (German, Dutch, Port, France, etc.), but only in those situations.

I've suggested this change in the past, but no one seems to agree with me sadly.



Now if you want to avoid people only using skirm/goon compositions in Fortress, that's going to be harder; you'd have to seriously cripple the skirmisher (reduce damage) or reduce it's micro-ability (e.g. 20 range > 18 range). Somehow I doubt many people would be happy with either of these changes. You could maybe make skirms 5c or 5f more expensive? I could see myself losing games because I only got 4 skirms out in early fortress instead of 5.

OR

You could do things like making TCs cheaper! If TCs are viable then people may have to invest into units with higher siege (cannons, heavy infantry, etc.), or play more aggressively in fortress to deny said TCs, where certain unit compositions may be stronger than skirm/goon, since goons kinda need a decent mass to defend skirmishers effectively, which would be especially difficult to get if you're investing in a town center. :hmm:

OH WAIT.

Although in all seriousness the TC probably isn't quite cheap enough to warrant that, yet.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by momuuu »

I think theres very little in between 4 safe hunts and 2 mines and cascade range right now. Adirondacks and baja come to mind
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5488
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by Mitoe »

Jerom wrote:I think theres very little in between 4 safe hunts and 2 mines and cascade range right now. Adirondacks and baja come to mind

Are you trying to contradict me or just listing maps that may have low resources? I'm confused.
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Farewell sex-sepoy

Post by deleted_user0 »

Mitoe wrote:Debatable. Disregarding that, so then to you the problem is that no one plays those civs that I listed?

Again, though, I feel like having people mass musketeers instead of skirmishers like everyone seems to want would be much less enjoyable.


There are 3 ez fixes for that:

1) increase skirs bonus vs hi. Or better yet, make the arsenal upgrade easier to access (more accesible arsenal would be good in general)

2) buff bow pike so that they actuall can go toe to toe with musk huss. Again, more accessible arsenal could be good here. I think arsenal should just be available in age2. With some upgrades only available in age3. Advanced arsenal could just unlock more tech instead of making it age2.

3) revamp grenadiers to become heavy infantry killers.

Also the fact that age3 play is so dominant definitely correlates to skirm/goon combo dominance. With vill boxing, terrible pathing and auto siege modus, its very hard to get much done even vs small numbers of that combo. Unless you have tanky musk or tons of tanky cav. But ofc youre nerfing the former because its used too much. Even though skirm goon is used even more while there is no real argument why musk cav cannon shouldnt also be a fairly common and standard age3 combo. Not to mention skir dops or halbs. But ofc musk mass is boring and skir mass is pro.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 29 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV