Asian Civs Balance

[g06092]

Hey, guys I was thinking about writing this thread a long time ago. I want to know if it's just me noticing some bonuses all Asian civs have over the others (the comparison will mainly focus on the European civs). I'll try to say mostly what comes on top of my mind starting from Discovery age.
First thing - having 2 scouts. This helps really a lot to scout faster and find better treasure to be able to steal and at the same time gather other treasures. Harassment of single explorer can make strategies involving building TP bad for European civs. For example if a Russian player what's to go for TP boom vs Japan he can lose he's explorer and if he actually invested cards as the cheap TP card in Discovery then you're really fucked up.
Another thing is aging up with wonder
- With their huge size they give a good defense
- You keep training villagers all the time
- While most civs don't have a fast age up or it's only for specific age you can actually force the speed with the waste of little villager time for any age you want. And you still get really big bonus while European civs get nothing.
- Their bonuses are ridiculously better. For example let's say we compare all Colonial age up bonuses with the best Colonial age up - 400 wood. Let's go with China: Summer Palace gives 400 food + trains armies for free. Tower gives you 5 vills (European civs have 2 vills age up...). Confucian Academy - trains artillery in Colonial and even for free (WTF). Those flying crows not only have a lot Hp but are actually with really high attack which makes them even better vs cavalry (other artillery overkills infantry anyway). But that's not enough - Confucian Academy also gives you additional army.
About Japan: Toshogu Shrine - equals roughly 2 vills with upgrades, increase gather rate of shrines and gives you 200 export which by itself almost equals the 400 wood. The Shogunate - 400XP at start is more valuable than 400 wood (shipments take much less than 700xp), cheaper amd faster to train units is not a bad addition too. Golden Pavilion - 3 archers which cost 3/4 of the 400 wood and in addition free Advanced Arsenal shipment +building it for you(which alone is 250 wood). Tori Gates - in case military rickshaw (200 wood) and 1 samurai (200 resources) is not enough you get 50% more XP for the whole game from the beginning just for fun. India - Tower of Victory - 400 wood + additional winning of the most important battle and turning the game in your favor. Agra Fort - not only more valuable as resources but gives you good strategic position (can be used both offensive and defensive).Charminar Gate - you get 2 sowars and you can upgrade all your army by just making same units from other building. Karni Mata - 500 resources and boost to your whole economy - can't go wrong with that. Taj Mahal - 500 coin and fuck up opponent timings, element of surprise or just getting you out of position.
But that's not enough. We haven't yet taken into account all their tech advantages - All Asian civ have some weird mortar/culverin/falconet combination and of course it's available in age 3. Flaming arrows (especially with 2x2 shipments) both counter the best age 3 shipment (2 falconets) and get such for yourself. Hand mortars are both mortars and culverins which actually don't cost any gold. India has the most gay of them all - Siege elephants. Mortars and culverins with insane HP and speed. No slow down animations. Simply insane. Also as expected - available in age 3. And what about unit compositions ->' India got everything from Colonial. Japan has more than enough from Colonial too (not that anything different from ashigarus is needed). And China is actually dealing well in age 2 but just have even better FF opportunities. Ashigarus speed is so lame there's no need to discuss it in details.China's chu ko nus are also with more speed just not that often used because age up is preferred. So China has the answer to the broken musketeer type of unit unlike others like Germans.
Another common aspect for all Asian civs is the consulate. This thing is insane - not only gives you a bonus line 10% HP for free but also you have one building capable of taking out any type of army to counter the enemy. No need of additional military buildings. Also you can boom if your enemy allows you. Independent of map it gives you additional opportunities to boom. It gives you incredible army composition/strategy flexibility. You can be aggressive or boom and make use of all bonuses when you need them - additional gather rate at start and 10% HP when you fight for example although many people don't really try to do this.
Also all free army/ consulate units, disciples and so on have free instant upgrade with age up. Consulate units have +10% attack/HP for no reason. Scouts have insanely better upgrades and are great at sucking up damage. Especially the Chinese monk who can go into cover mode.
And that's just half of the stuff. There are many other things like infinite resources from shrines, slower exhaustion of natural resources by Japan or India, almost impossible to raid Japan or China, tactical surprises like petards without the need or separate building and so on.
I know I'll be hated and people will just get one thing they don't agree and start arguing about it but in general those are really insane bonuses. I also know that Asian civs have some minor disadvantages but they are almost never greater than they advantages. For example having to stack up a lot slow gathered export to use it but a bonus of 10% HP completely overcomes it.

[Mr_Bramboy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph

[[Armag] diarouga]

Idk if wonders are really a huge bonus. Don't forget you age 20sec slower.

Also you only talked about their advantages, you forgot to say that they age at 5min with an average eco.

[forgrin]

It's a bit of expansion syndrome- way back when TAD was released, gotta make the Asian civs good so people would actually buy the expansion. For similar reasons they also have alot of weird and wonderful options/bonuses etc, some of which are OP (Brit consulate musks, for example). Also we're currently in a boom/eco semi meta, and the one big weakness all the Asian civs have (except India if doing Agra) is a weakness to early pressure/all ins.
Basically Asian civs are really powerful, but take time to get set up properly. Only issue is that the counter to them (rush) has generally been nerfed or is out of the meta.

[edeholland]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph

Don''t copy Marts jokes

[g06092]

It''s a bit of expansion syndrome- way back when TAD was released, gotta make the Asian civs good so people would actually buy the expansion. For similar reasons they also have alot of weird and wonderful options/bonuses etc, some of which are OP (Brit consulate musks, for example). Also we''re currently in a boom/eco semi meta, and the one big weakness all the Asian civs have (except India if doing Agra) is a weakness to early pressure/all ins.
Basically Asian civs are really powerful, but take time to get set up properly. Only issue is that the counter to them (rush) has generally been nerfed or is out of the meta.

Exactly. I''m wondering what does the "FP guys" think about this. Seems like they don''t see this as important as Portuguese having cheaper villagers. At least not yet and it''s not that ''urgent''. BTW I think Japan has opportunities of having a considerably good rush (not ultra fast all-in).

[Goodspeed]

I agree with all of that, especially the part about Asian civs benefiting from the meta moving to more eco-focused styles. For the first EP we're only changing civs that are clearly OP or clearly UP, but we'll have to see where Asian civs stand after that. However even after changes to Iro/Otto/Port/Dutch I do think there are non-Asian civs with bigger balance issues than any of the Asian civs.

[forgrin]

I agree with all of that, especially the part about Asian civs benefiting from the meta moving to more eco-focused styles. For the first EP we''re only changing civs that are clearly OP or clearly UP, but we''ll have to see where Asian civs stand after that. However even after changes to Iro/Otto/Port/Dutch I do think there are non-Asian civs with bigger balance issues than any of the Asian civs.

Thinking about touching Germans? (I vote for decreased ulhan RR)

[yurashic]

I agree with all of that, especially the part about Asian civs benefiting from the meta moving to more eco-focused styles. For the first EP were only changing civs that are clearly OP or clearly UP, but well have to see where Asian civs stand after that. However even after changes to Iro/Otto/Port/Dutch I do think there are non-Asian civs with bigger balance issues than any of the Asian civs.

Thinking about touching Germans? (I vote for decreased ulhan RR)

If you simply nerf German they will be a bad civ. Their strategic options and composition options are very limited and if you straight up nerf them while boosting Port and Dutch it will be like Spain nerf in TAD.

Give them more options, make their colonial viable like boost doppelsoldners or crossbowmen or make hand infantry cards affect crossbowmen as well, make war wagons somehow viable like 10% speed boost and turn rate while nerfing early fortress play.

[britishmusketeer]

Lots of what you say is true, but crows are bad in age 3 and even worse in age 2. Also you talk about the advantages but you miss the disadvantages of the Asian civs. Having to build wonders means that you waste lots of vill seconds early and they also lack 5 vill shipments. The Asian civs are also being slightly nerfed in that they can no longer get elmeti or mams in age 3.

[forgrin]

Thinking about touching Germans? (I vote for decreased ulhan RR)

If you simply nerf German they will be a bad civ. Their strategic options and composition options are very limited and if you straight up nerf them while boosting Port and Dutch it will be like Spain nerf in TAD.

Give them more options, make their colonial viable like boost doppelsoldners or crossbowmen or make hand infantry cards affect crossbowmen as well, make war wagons somehow viable like 10% speed boost and turn rate while nerfing early fortress play.

Hence why Id recommend something relatively minor, like ulhan RR slight decrease. Theyd still be strong, just the death ball of ulhan wouldnt be as good once your opponent has enough goons (and makes it so musks dont just get dpsd down as easily). Crossbowman buff? Yes please. I like the card idea as well.

WW you have to be careful with, they are absolutely beast if theyre actually pointing the right way. You might have to slightly decrease their HP if you give them more speed.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I agree with all of that, especially the part about Asian civs benefiting from the meta moving to more eco-focused styles. For the first EP were only changing civs that are clearly OP or clearly UP, but well have to see where Asian civs stand after that. However even after changes to Iro/Otto/Port/Dutch I do think there are non-Asian civs with bigger balance issues than any of the Asian civs.

Thinking about touching Germans? (I vote for decreased ulhan RR)

Not in the 1st patch.

[Good ol Ivan]

Yeah ES intentionally made the asian civs have so much new unique shit and make them absurdly OP so more people bought the expansion only to try them out - and it was even worse when TAD came out.
India started with an extra villie and an additional crate (Indian 10/10 was fucking OP), China had the OP disciple FF (disciples could convert dead units into disciples, had more atk, and chinese explorer/monk could train even more of those things - also aging with the white pagoda wonder to fort gave you 12 of those fuckers), and Japs had stronger ashi, and 10% atk bonus with jap isolation

Back when TWC came out many people felt alienated with the civs because their units were too unconventional and the civs had too many techs/buildings removed.