Everything about walls. Thread for gathering knowledge

[Imperial Noob]

I'd like to gather here all strategies and tricks concerning the art of walling.

Is it better to wall up the factories together or separately? On the edge of the map or in the center of the base?

Which civs are in your experience best at sieging and simultanously holding up against counterattacks? (in a ranking)
Which civs are best at creating a real fortress? (in a ranking)

Once in a FFA a british player walled up not in layers, but in a total chaos, so that I couldn't predict in which direction to siege (at the time I couldn't research spies, and then, after researching them i was simply too slow to siege down this hydra). I killed 3 of his units for every one of mine lost, but he still held up for over an hour and left his colony only out of boredom.
How does one effectively create such a labyrinth of walls without trapping it's poor constructors inside?

Are stonemasons and the like good cards in FFA?

As Germany, do you wall up with settler wagons or with villagers?

What hotkeys do you use for walling?

Do you normally spam gates wherever possible, or conserve wood at the expense of some walking time for your army? (i.e. for heavy artillery and unique units, which you cannot simply delete)

I'd like to hear from you guys before I attempt to spread here my own noobish conclusions.

[pecelot]

For the future I'd suggest a bit different format of such a form, for example with the questions listed to make it easier to respond to each of them, especially later on. As of right now, though, my answers are in bold, naturally.

Is it better to wall up the factories together or separately? On the edge of the map or in the center of the base?

I find it rather situational — it's mainly dependant on the size of your base. If you have a wide back, you should definitely consider splitting them up to prevent losing them both at the same time in a random box engagement or when you hold a flank. Placing them together somewhere in the center, though, provides better security, but once you've let the enemy into your economy, it's basically over. What I used to do was sort of a hybrid — putting them up on both sides of my rather tight base. In case of emergency you can always add some walls in-between them. Generally I would claim it's situational and one cannot really predict the outcome of further battles when laying them down (unless having considered civilisations that one is likely to face). Moreover, most of the times when they break into your mills and plantations, it's really hard to recover, which in the end decreases the relevance of factories placement.

Which civs are in your experience best at sieging and simultanously holding up against counterattacks? (in a ranking)

I wouldn't really dare to create a ranking myself, though I could briefly express my general thoughts on that. One could consider the Sioux to be the best at sieging due to their tanky units supported by the siege dance, however, they obviously lack fortifications. For holding up counter-attacks the town dance seems particularly useful, on the other hand Iroquois and Aztec siege potential have to be questioned. I wouldn't necessarily pick up my favourite from them, then. Looking at European nations, I'd choose the Portuguese due to their strong walls, camping ability with very powerful ranged units, which is also very useful at sieging down enemy bases for long-range mortar attacks protection. Other than that, I'd say it depends on artillery and other units upgrades. A useful card could be Aggressive Policy of Sioux, Battlefield Construction for Ottomans or India to quickly form a base to either flank the enemy base or increase your defence output.

Which civs are best at creating a real fortress? (in a ranking)

Possibly the Aztecs, as you once showed me :) The town dance plus the abundance of war and noble huts are certainly the reasons. Similarly, the second place would be perhaps occupied by the Iroquois, for a little bit worse version of the aforementioned. Later on, like described above, presumably the Portuguese. In terms of Europeans civilisations in general there's always the revolution potential, which I'm a big fan of, as you have also seen numerous times :) With the revolt + Imperial Age trick and an addition of 4 Settlers from the Cherokee native settlement you can cover yourself with a bunch of strongholds in the form of forts. The real question is: what to protect after the revolt, apart from two lonely factories? At the very bottom one could put the Sioux, though a corral wall is always an option

Once in a FFA a british player walled up not in layers, but in a total chaos, so that I couldn't predict in which direction to siege (at the time I couldn't research spies, and then, after researching them i was simply too slow to siege down this hydra). I killed 3 of his units for every one of mine lost, but he still held up for over an hour and left his colony only out of boredom.
How does one effectively create such a labyrinth of walls without trapping it's poor constructors inside?

That sounds smart. One could possibly infiltrate such walls with spies on their own. Church spies, I mean :) Sneak one or two, ideally before the walls are even finished, to find out how to break through them. Another choice is to gradually siege them down while protecting your own units — the Portuguese would fit perfectly here. It would be advantageous especially if you had a growing economy or could abuse your map presence with the trading post route or several native embassies — just like in 1v1s: boom counters turtle :) To sum up, of course it takes a lot of time and I don't think there is a definite solution to such struggles.

Are stonemasons and the like good cards in FFA?

I would say: rather no, as usually you should have a better replacement, improving your economy or army. Walls are already built fast (which has just been nerfed in the newest iteration of the Treaty Patch, interestingly enough), and oftentimes it's pretty irrelevant whether you save up a few seconds on constructing a building. Of course, it's an improvement, in the end, so if you can afford a slot (vide: the Ottomans), you can send it, but rather for fun.

As Germany, do you wall up with settler wagons or with villagers?

Walling involves a lot of walking, therefore instead of wasting those precious villager seconds, especially after the Guild Artisans upgrade, you should rather use regular settlers. Like I said, walls are built fast irrespective of builders.

What hotkeys do you use for walling?

Whatever suits you, really. I use „W" for walls and „R" for repair — a very useful hotkey some tend to miss...

Do you normally spam gates wherever possible, or conserve wood at the expense of some walking time for your army? (i.e. for heavy artillery and unique units, which you cannot simply delete)

With a couple of layers I usually make one gate-pass in the most predictable and useful spots. After that, of course, depending on the direction of my military involvement.

[JakeyBoyTH]

For the rankings, it depends on what you play.
In TR, and perhaps in general then it would be Dutch who have the best siege, being that they can mass cannons more easily, while still having a large force. They have 150pop to spend, so it is much easier to defend and siege. The Ports would be a close second, because while they may have a lower siege, they have uber-ranged mortars. They often force an opponent to push unwillingly to destroy their mortars. If their opponent is hiding in their base, then it is only a matter of time to push them out. Japan can do a similar thing, and they also have 125 pop to spend on units being in a similar situation as the Dutch.

For creating a fortress, the Aztec are pretty much the best. Those 32k walls can even hold up to an Oprich box for a long time. In Orinoco it's pretty much gg if someone plays Aztec like that. Iro would come second, as Pecelot has said, and Dutch third. In 1v1 TR it would be silly to take on Dutch unless you are really confident. They have so much cannon that unless you are Portuguese / Japan it would be hard to seige. Microing Caribeeners and their Halbs would destroy a box as well.

[deleted_user]

I build walls ~5% of my games and also coincidentally I reach age III ~5% of the time:

[pecelot]

The major drawback of playing Dutch in longer games is possibly their rather mediocre eco and pretty weak cavalry, but apart from that I'd imagine 150 military pop should be helpful. I forgot about Japan, their siege potential is also huge with Daimyo flanking possibilities and good mortars that can serve as culverins in case, too.

[lemmings121]

Really? There is a hotkey for repairing? Live and learn....

[pecelot]

[JakeyBoyTH]

The major drawback of playing Dutch in longer games is possibly their rather mediocre eco and pretty weak cavalry, but apart from that I'd imagine 150 military pop should be helpful. I forgot about Japan, their siege potential is also huge with Daimyo flanking possibilities and good mortars that can serve as culverins in case, too.

I believe it is the flame cannon thingies that are the culverins. The yabasume are also essential for anti-artillery. The Chinese do however have mortars that are culverins. Although as you may have guessed by my naming I can be wrong.

[AOEisLOVE_AOEisLIFE]

I'd like to gather here all strategies and tricks concerning the art of walling.

you only use walls when you haz no balls.

and also when you wanna win a game. they are quite solid for their price, apparently.
EDIT: sorry for the bad pun, couldnt resist.

[pecelot]

The major drawback of playing Dutch in longer games is possibly their rather mediocre eco and pretty weak cavalry, but apart from that I'd imagine 150 military pop should be helpful. I forgot about Japan, their siege potential is also huge with Daimyo flanking possibilities and good mortars that can serve as culverins in case, too.

I believe it is the flame cannon thingies that are the culverins. The yabasume are also essential for anti-artillery. The Chinese do however have mortars that are culverins. Although as you may have guessed by my naming I can be wrong.

Yes, I might have indeed be mistaken, my bad.

[CurassierAndCurassier]

Wait what was that @pecelot?

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Imperial age + revolt trick?

[pecelot]

You can revolt and advance to age V if you click both of the buttons at the same time (during a pause break), starting from the revolution.
Again, credits to sempai @Aizamk

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[EmoCelestia]

no way LOL, that reminds of how in deathmatch games ur stuck at Industrial and they disable the button for asian civs to build wonders but you can still build the wonder if you hit k ( defualt hotkey for wonder building )

[momuuu]

You can revolt and advance to age V if you click both of the buttons at the same time (during a pause break), starting from the revolution.
Again, credits to sempai @Aizamk

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Thats pretty cool. Probably only useful on water maps and against patient and respectful opponents xd

[deleted_user]

only breeze and kynesie gets pleasure by playing ports

additionally

only breeze kynesie and tit gets pleasure by walling

[pecelot]

Like I said in my „OP", I used to try to do that in FFAs with Germany — I'd gather as much as I could for as long as I could and then do the revolt trick, cover myself with Forts and try to survive, perhaps drain my opponent with my huge military advantage and possibly raid them at the same time. I didn't give it that many tries as FFA is not necessarily my favourite game mode, I won only once because my opponents just resigned and lost twice or three times. It's certainly fun, though
Aizamk said he tried to do that in treaty, if I recall correctly, to spam Russian forts, but it didn't work out :(

[KINGofOsmane]

@Kynesie

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our wall hotkey

[oxaloacetate]

Like I said in my „OP", I used to try to do that in FFAs with Germany — I'd gather as much as I could for as long as I could and then do the revolt trick, cover myself with Forts and try to survive, perhaps drain my opponent with my huge military advantage and possibly raid them at the same time. I didn't give it that many tries as FFA is not necessarily my favourite game mode, I won only once because my opponents just resigned and lost twice or three times. It's certainly fun, though
Aizamk said he tried to do that in treaty, if I recall correctly, to spam Russian forts, but it didn't work out :(

Whats the revolt trick? Going imperial while revolting?

[dicktator_]

For the rankings, it depends on what you play.
In TR, and perhaps in general then it would be Dutch who have the best siege, being that they can mass cannons more easily, while still having a large force. They have 150pop to spend, so it is much easier to defend and siege. The Ports would be a close second, because while they may have a lower siege, they have uber-ranged mortars. They often force an opponent to push unwillingly to destroy their mortars. If their opponent is hiding in their base, then it is only a matter of time to push them out. Japan can do a similar thing, and they also have 125 pop to spend on units being in a similar situation as the Dutch.

For creating a fortress, the Aztec are pretty much the best. Those 32k walls can even hold up to an Oprich box for a long time. In Orinoco it's pretty much gg if someone plays Aztec like that. Iro would come second, as Pecelot has said, and Dutch third. In 1v1 TR it would be silly to take on Dutch unless you are really confident. They have so much cannon that unless you are Portuguese / Japan it would be hard to seige. Microing Caribeeners and their Halbs would destroy a box as well.

In treaty Japan and Russia are tied for best siege IMO. Russia has higher damage cheaper mortars and opris, also that card that increases infantry siege apparently effects petards (I learned this from watching aiz stream) so they have the best petards as well. Japan has hatamoto and 3 pop mortars with higher range. As long as you are trading even or close to even on culvs you can beat Dutch with any euro civ except otto. Wall dance can be nice VS things like sioux dog box but it's not a game winner. When you're wall dancing you miss out on other dances like attack dance or explorer dance or fertility dance.

[JakeyBoyTH]

For the rankings, it depends on what you play.
In TR, and perhaps in general then it would be Dutch who have the best siege, being that they can mass cannons more easily, while still having a large force. They have 150pop to spend, so it is much easier to defend and siege. The Ports would be a close second, because while they may have a lower siege, they have uber-ranged mortars. They often force an opponent to push unwillingly to destroy their mortars. If their opponent is hiding in their base, then it is only a matter of time to push them out. Japan can do a similar thing, and they also have 125 pop to spend on units being in a similar situation as the Dutch.

For creating a fortress, the Aztec are pretty much the best. Those 32k walls can even hold up to an Oprich box for a long time. In Orinoco it's pretty much gg if someone plays Aztec like that. Iro would come second, as Pecelot has said, and Dutch third. In 1v1 TR it would be silly to take on Dutch unless you are really confident. They have so much cannon that unless you are Portuguese / Japan it would be hard to seige. Microing Caribeeners and their Halbs would destroy a box as well.

In treaty Japan and Russia are tied for best siege IMO. Russia has higher damage cheaper mortars and opris, also that card that increases infantry siege apparently effects petards (I learned this from watching aiz stream) so they have the best petards as well. Japan has hatamoto and 3 pop mortars with higher range. As long as you are trading even or close to even on culvs you can beat Dutch with any euro civ except otto. Wall dance can be nice VS things like sioux dog box but it's not a game winner. When you're wall dancing you miss out on other dances like attack dance or explorer dance or fertility dance.

Good point, but with 150 pop I imagine it would be hard to trade even, unless it is more than 1v1. The Dutch eco would also let them down. With the ports though you can get better positioning of your mortars, which can be pretty annoying, so it would also be a bit more map dependent. The same goes for the aztec walls.

[howlingwolfpaw]

There are a couple different wall styles I see in FFA which are quite interesting and can be very hard to overcome that have not been mentioned. This is because most people in FFA make walls and have the time to do in relative peace, but do not have the build boundaries of a TR game.

There is the standard bubble around the base, this makes for an easy defense as you can move troops around your base easier but if your walls are breached its full access to your eco.

Some adapt by walling their eco, within a larger bubble of walls and then wall off factories. This can trap people who try to rush in too fast and you basically have them walled front and back. and be a very strong base. Styles like this is what I tend to do.

some people go even further and basically wall their base in little boxes where one farm or a barracks and stable might be in thier own box. This style is a little more confusing to get your own troops though and cost a lot of wood, but can be very hard to break unless you just out skill your opponent.

As mentioned some go crazy and wall at odd angles and weird designed that basically takes spies to make any sense of. very annoying. I just make my objective to hit at the heart of where I think their main buildings are and its not so bad. Except that they can run easily.

another technique I do sometimes is build sparatic pillars outside my walls for extra LOS so I can see any incoming armies and have lots of time to react.

Another wall tip is to not build them too close together. if they are close artillery fire etc.. can end up taking 2 layers down.

Always target the post in a wall and not the section. that way 2 sections and 1 post go down instead of 1 section and 2 post. You can go pro style anddelete your post but then 3 sections go down, its cheaper and faster to build that way but there is the trade off of making bigger holes faster.
Don't try to push through too small of a hole. Just hold position and widen the gap before making a push. Be patient and make the enemy have to be offensive to kill your artillery instead of being defensive inside the walls.

Generally though those with the most walls do it because they are less skilled and need to rely on them. They spend a lot of wood on them too, so if you don't wait too long you can get them in a weaker state. Although it is goon to have some walls in FFA because you never know when you are going to be attacked or double teamed. To get by without them you have to play aggressive early and move your base and vills with the map resources

I never really see anyone use the Chinese card that buffs HP to a large degree the build time for them is quite a trade off.
I do like walls or building HP cards for other civs though.


J