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Netherlands Goodspeed
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03 Dec 2017, 15:54

There was a discussion in a twitch chat about which card Brits should send first if they are cav starting. It came to the point where I stated that even if you would make 5 manors off the 700w (disregarding that there are better options) it would still be better. Some disagreed, massive drama ensued. Grudge matches, death threats, all that good stuff (no, not really).

Anyway, to get some certainty about the matter I decided to simulate the scenarios in this thing

@WickedCossack @Jerom @ListlessSalmon

The build order log for both builds:
5v first wrote:03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 01:21 | Trained Villager
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 01:46 | Trained Villager
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 02:11 | Trained Villager
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 02:27 | Shipment Vills3 arrived
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 02:36 | Trained Villager
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 02:43 | Allocated 0 vills to food, 17 to wood, 0 to coin
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 03:07 | Built Market
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 03:26 | Switched 2 villagers from Wood to Coin
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 03:29 | Built Manor
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 03:39 | Researched GangSaw
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 03:46 | Built Manor
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 04:03 | Researched HuntingDogs
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 04:06 | Researched PhilosophersPrince
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 04:06 | Allocated 11 vills to food, 0 to wood, 7 to coin
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 04:06 | Allocated 9 vills to food, 0 to wood, 9 to coin
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 04:26 | Switched 2 villagers from Food to Coin
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 04:26 | Switched 1 villagers from Food to Coin
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 04:31 | Trained Villager
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 04:36 | Built Stable
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 04:46 | Shipment Vills5 arrived
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 04:56 | Trained Villager
03/12/2017 16:00:43 | 05:16 | Trained Hussar batch. Amount: 5
03/12/2017 16:00:52 | 05:21 | Trained Villager
03/12/2017 16:00:52 | 05:46 | Trained Villager
03/12/2017 16:01:33 | 06:11 | Trained Villager
03/12/2017 16:01:33 | 06:27 | Shipment Crates700w arrived
700w first wrote:03/12/2017 16:02:50 | 01:21 | Trained Villager
03/12/2017 16:02:50 | 01:46 | Trained Villager
03/12/2017 16:02:50 | 02:11 | Trained Villager
03/12/2017 16:02:50 | 02:27 | Shipment Vills3 arrived
03/12/2017 16:02:50 | 02:36 | Trained Villager
03/12/2017 16:02:50 | 02:43 | Allocated 0 vills to food, 17 to wood, 0 to coin
03/12/2017 16:02:50 | 03:07 | Built Market
03/12/2017 16:03:30 | 03:26 | Switched 2 villagers from Wood to Coin
03/12/2017 16:03:36 | 03:29 | Built Manor
03/12/2017 16:03:36 | 03:39 | Researched GangSaw
03/12/2017 16:03:46 | 03:46 | Built Manor
03/12/2017 16:03:46 | 04:03 | Researched HuntingDogs
03/12/2017 16:03:46 | 04:06 | Researched PhilosophersPrince
03/12/2017 16:03:58 | 04:06 | Allocated 9 vills to food, 0 to wood, 9 to coin
03/12/2017 16:04:12 | 04:26 | Switched 3 villagers from Food to Coin
03/12/2017 16:04:15 | 04:31 | Trained Villager
03/12/2017 16:04:15 | 04:36 | Built Stable
03/12/2017 16:04:34 | 04:46 | Shipment Crates700w arrived
03/12/2017 16:04:49 | 04:56 | Trained Villager
03/12/2017 16:06:19 | 05:16 | Trained Hussar batch. Amount: 5
03/12/2017 16:06:19 | 05:16 | Built Manor
03/12/2017 16:06:19 | 05:16 | Built Manor
03/12/2017 16:06:19 | 05:16 | Built Manor
03/12/2017 16:06:25 | 05:21 | Trained Villager
03/12/2017 16:06:25 | 05:26 | Built Manor
03/12/2017 16:06:25 | 05:26 | Built Manor
03/12/2017 16:06:25 | 05:46 | Trained Villager
03/12/2017 16:06:25 | 05:57 | Shipment Vills5 arrived


The script is ended at 6:27 because that is when the 700w arrives for the 5v first build. Villager seconds stockpiled for both builds at 6:27 are:
5v first: 2357 VS
700w first: 2236 VS

This is slightly off because I didn't build the manors immediately when possible (as you can see by the times they were built), sometimes some seconds after, so it will be closer to 2260 VS for 700w first meaning 5v first ends up with approx. 100 VS more than 700w first.

700w first means you need to gather the crates (losing VS), and build manors (losing VS). Compensation for this is that 700w first means you get +135 XP from building 5 manors. This, despite the timing of the hussar batch being somewhat significant in this, means your next shipment arrives 30 seconds faster. Worth noting, then, is that the VS gap at 5:57 was larger but the gap is closed by 150 VS due to the arrival of 5v.

So at 6:27 the 5v build is 100 VS ahead, and (still) 135XP behind.

Some considerations:
- The 5v first build at 6:27 is 5 vills behind and has 700w on the floor. To make up for the vill deficit, it has to gather this wood and build 5 manors. After that, it will have made up for the vill deficit AND the XP deficit, but will have lost more than 100 VS. After all said and done, the 700w build is ahead. This is again disregarding that there are better things to do with 700w.
- The extra VS in the early game don't get you an extra hussar, but may enable the 5v first build to sneak in an extra market upgrade like great coat, perhaps make it easier to gather for the huss batch as well as minutemen, etc.
- 700w first doesn't have to send 5v after.
- 5v aren't as useful if you're garrisoned.
- 5v first doesn't allow for mixing in a barracks early, giving your opponent opportunities for early game heavy infantry timings.
- Most importantly, who the fuck doesn't send VC? ;) (with VC, 700w gets you 8 manors instead of 5)

With all things considered I don't see a single scenario where I would cav start and send 5v first. To be fair I don't like cav starts with Brits in general, because the batch is expensive and prevents you from booming as hard as you'd like. There is no match up where the early 5 huss do enough damage to make up for this as far as I can see.

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China fei123456
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03 Dec 2017, 16:23

Don't listen to GS.
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03 Dec 2017, 16:25

fei123456 wrote:Don't listen to GS.
——Aizamk


You can change your deity; i am still gonna worship GS no matter what
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Greece tedere12
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03 Dec 2017, 17:26

With 700w you can drop a rax down and train some pikes/musks to contest the enemy cav start/defend when you are getting rushed
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Great Britain WickedCossack
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03 Dec 2017, 17:27

Sure, so like I said in twitch chat I think you've completely ignored critical points in your calculations:

Your build doesn't re-invest the VS gained from 5 vil
Taking the numbers from your logs we can see there is a 40 second window before all your manors complete from the 700w. Let's take a look at the VS difference in this 40 second window.

- VS loss from crates = 84 (being super charitable here in reality this will be at least 100 due to overgather and walking time inbetween the 3 crates)
- VS loss from earlier 5 vils 30x2 + 40x3 (using your manor build times) = 180

This gives us a total of 264 VS which is not re-invested. Your build logs just pool this extra VS but let's assume we re-invest it in wood and we find 264 VS is equivalent to a 145 wood difference. Now technically the 84 VS isn't a gain for the 5 vil player but assuming both builds are playing each other in a 1v1 the total 264VS/145w difference still exists (assuming a few vils gather wood for each player) but I'll again be charitable to you and give a 10s leeway to reinvest the 145w to compensate the 84 VS.

So for the 5 vil player a Manor starts building at 5:36 and finishes at 5:56 generating 27xp.

So taking 6:27 as a reference we can add 31 VS and a whole villager.

Now let's add in the xp bonus from the extra manor and we find that your 700w shipment should arrive about ~ 10 seconds earlier (no xp from the 5:46 vil, I don't know the exact timing on this, maybe test it in your program) so 6:17 would be a better reference point.

Furthermore your logs take place in a vacuum but since XP costs increase exponentially ANY action in the game (treasures, any combat) would reduce the time difference between 5:57 (5 vil shipment for the 700w player) and 6:17 which is always in favour of the 5 vil first player.

So my main point rests on the re-investment but a couple of other minor points:

i) Looking at your build logs it suggests you gathered 400w (of 700w) within 10 seconds as 3 manors finish completing 30 seconds after your shipment arrives. That requires a minimum of 5 villagers on crates which is rarely practical due to walking VS lost (and potential overgather VS lost) and I'd suggest that the most common number of villagers to pick up crates is lower (3 perhaps seems common? I rarely ever see 5 if ever.)

Either way you're looking once again at moderate VS deductions for 700w either in the logistics of the action of using 5 vils to pick up your crates or the manors being built later due to less vils picking up crates.

ii) To look at your first consideration This is again disregarding that there are better things to do with 700w. Ofc you are using this in favour of 700w but interestingly this works both ways.

You already conclude that 5 vil wins out in VS even despite ignoring re-investment assuming the 700w player spent it all on manors (which is not actually that uncommon, infact in some MU's id go as far to suggest its pretty common.)

5v first: 2357 VS
700w first: 2236 VS


Now at this point your argument rests on the idea that the 5 vil player now has to spend his 700w on all manors but they can use the VS lead to create a new timing by investing it into production and military that is mathematically unachievable for the 700w player.

Anyway in conclusion to counter your original claim "therefore it is strictly better in all scenarios" is absolutely not the case in terms of heavy economic play and even with respect to some military timings.
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03 Dec 2017, 18:04

I always thought that the 5v build felt better because it allowed me to more easily and consistently get continuous batches of cav. From what I have seen personally, of the time people start cav as brits, like vs. china or in team, (except against russia I guess), you probably aren't going to mix in the rax until after 6:30 anyway, so it doesn't matter too much when the 700w comes.
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Netherlands Jerom
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03 Dec 2017, 18:09

The idea is that this is much better early on. If you're thinking you'll take harassment early on (russia??) and are planning to start cav and not add a rax right away, then the 5 villager build is actually simply strictly better. If you're failing to understand this then I'd suggest actually trying it out.

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Great Britain Hazza54321
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03 Dec 2017, 18:33

5v is less flexible so id never do it in 1v1
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Great Britain WickedCossack
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03 Dec 2017, 18:38

Yea I still send 700w over 5vil nearly every 1v1 game because I want the wood for things other than just pure manors.
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03 Dec 2017, 20:06

Hazza54321 wrote:5v is less flexible so id never do it in 1v1

You are right that 5v is less flexible, but there are a few matchups in which your opponent is really only going to be doing one thing (china and spain come to mind), and where there are a few builds with 5v first that work pretty well from my experience.

I do a build vs. china and sometimes spain where I do 5v first and train two or three batches of cav, then I drop down a rax or two with the 700w and transition to mostly musks, then follow it up with either 6 musk or 600w and try to do a timing into his base when they age up with like 10 huss and 20+ musk. It's nice because you can idle china a ton and delay their age up with that much cav that early, and then you can just siege down their villages with the musks and prevent them from shipping anything.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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03 Dec 2017, 20:29

Your build doesn't re-invest the VS gained from 5 vil
Hence the point:
The extra VS in the early game don't get you an extra hussar, but may enable the 5v first build to sneak in an extra market upgrade like great coat, perhaps make it easier to gather for the huss batch as well as minutemen, etc.


- VS loss from earlier 5 vils 30x2 + 40x3 (using your manor build times) = 180
Manor build time is 20s but I can't start building 5 manors immediately upon crate arrival. They have to be gathered first, which is the time difference you see in the game times when manors are finishing.

This gives us a total of 264 VS which is not re-invested.
About 200

Your build logs just pool this extra VS but let's assume we re-invest it in wood and we find 264 VS is equivalent to a 145 wood difference. Now technically the 84 VS isn't a gain for the 5 vil player but assuming both builds are playing each other in a 1v1 the total 264VS/145w difference still exists (assuming a few vils gather wood for each player) but I'll again be charitable to you and give a 10s leeway to reinvest the 145w to compensate the 84 VS.

So for the 5 vil player a Manor starts building at 5:36 and finishes at 5:56 generating 27xp.

So taking 6:27 as a reference we can add 31 VS and a whole villager.
You wouldn't get the extra VS immediately, you'd get it over time and you won't get away with a whole extra manor. You might be able to sneak in placer mines, partly gather for minutemen, stuff like that. This can indeed be relevant in some scenarios, which is why I added the point above.

So my main point rests on the re-investment but a couple of other minor points:
Even reinvesting you end up behind if you build 5 manors from the 700w that arrives after the 5v. You might argue that's an unfair comparison, but it's not because we're also unfairly assuming the 700w build makes 5 non-VC manors off of it. If we'd go into detail about how to spend wood and the goals of the build in general, we'd quickly find ourselves in a place where I would simply suggest alternatives that either send VC or don't start cav.

i) Looking at your build logs it suggests you gathered 400w (of 700w) within 10 seconds as 3 manors finish completing 30 seconds after your shipment arrives. That requires a minimum of 5 villagers on crates which is rarely practical due to walking VS lost (and potential overgather VS lost) and I'd suggest that the most common number of villagers to pick up crates is lower (3 perhaps seems common? I rarely ever see 5 if ever.)
If you're building 5 manors off 700w then 5v on crates would be a pretty good amount, assuming you're not gathering res very far from TC.

ii) To look at your first consideration This is again disregarding that there are better things to do with 700w. Ofc you are using this in favour of 700w but interestingly this works both ways.
It works both ways. But if we're assuming you'd build 5 manors off 700w then we should assume it the other way too. How else are we making a fair mathematical comparison? After all, from 700w you wouldn't build 5 manors.

You already conclude that 5 vil wins out in VS even despite ignoring re-investment assuming the 700w player spent it all on manors (which is not actually that uncommon, infact in some MU's id go as far to suggest its pretty common.)
It shouldn't be common. If you're spending 700w on manors you should've sent VC.

Jerom wrote:The idea is that this is much better early on. If you're thinking you'll take harassment early on (russia??) and are planning to start cav and not add a rax right away, then the 5 villager build is actually simply strictly better. If you're failing to understand this then I'd suggest actually trying it out.
You'd make pikes or musks.
If you insist on cav the 5v build is still not better because:
- If you're getting harassed, vills are much less efficient
- The VS boost is much too small to make up for the lack of options in case they don't go for the build you expected, and
- 5v is worse than whatever you would spend 700w on: market ups, rax, a couple of manors, TP, or even units.
- You are opening yourself up to HI timings. For example in the Russia MU if they send 700c first and go double BH musk, you're definitely in trouble when you find 30 musks in your base and your rax is not even up yet.

Note I didn't draw the conclusion that 700w first is strictly better in all possible scenarios. My conclusion was that I don't see a scenario where I would go for this build, even when cav starting.

Anyway I don't think there's any match up where cav start is viable as Brits in the first place. It's misunderstanding the civ's strengths. Even in match ups where early cav harass feels viable because they are naked FFing (Dutch, China, Spain, etc) it's still worse than simply booming to 20 manors asap and having the cav out 40 seconds later or not at all.
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Great Britain WickedCossack
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03 Dec 2017, 21:18

Hence the point:
The extra VS in the early game don't get you an extra hussar, but may enable the 5v first build to sneak in an extra market upgrade like great coat, perhaps make it easier to gather for the huss batch as well as minutemen, etc.


I explain that the extra VS is a lot more than a great coat.

Manor build time is 20s but I can't start building 5 manors immediately upon crate arrival. They have to be gathered first, which is the time difference you see in the game times when manors are finishing.


Yea this is what I've calculated using your manor build times? 30x2 40x3 from your numbers? You have a point here or?

About 200


It's 264 VS at absolute minimum and even then that's being super charitable to you. I showed you the maths from your numbers:

Delay before 700w build gets the extra 5 vils spawned from manors 30x2 + 40x3 = 180 VS
Time taken to pick up crates 84 VS Crates pick up at 8res per second which in game works out to be 12s per 100res. 12 x 7 = 84 In reality it will be more than 84 due to inefficiency.

Plus for whatever reason this one slipped my mind:

Time lost building manors 100VS since 20x5

So you're down 364 VS 40 seconds after the first colonial shipment arrives. You will be down even more at your point of conclusion (6:27) when it is re-invested.

Now rather than saying "about 200" can you specifically explain where that figure 200 comes from and why the calculations I typed above are incorrect.

You wouldn't get the extra VS immediately, you'd get it over time and you won't get away with a whole extra manor. You might be able to sneak in placer mines, partly gather for minutemen, stuff like that. This can indeed be relevant in some scenarios, which is why I added the point above.


You're not following my argument I posed at all. I calculated the VS difference within the first 40 seconds and then reinvested those VS at a point after they were obtained even giving 10s charitable leeway. Yes you can get away with a whole extra manor and more. The maths shows that, can your counter argument specifically target the maths in my previous paragraph because unless I'm being obtuse and/or have missed something obvious yes yes you can.

As I explained before the extra VS invested in say another manor (and more) will get you more xp and even more VS.

Even reinvesting you end up behind if you build 5 manors from the 700w that arrives after the 5v.


But ... it doesn't. Your own initial post refutes this as it shows more VS for 5 vils so even your point identifies there is a window where 5 vils is a superior shipment in raw VS. Re-investment opens this window to the point where it can see some practical use.

If you're building 5 manors off 700w then 5v on crates would be a pretty good amount, assuming you're not gathering res very far from TC.


Sure it's feasible I'm just pointing out some extra VS lost that I didn't include.

It works both ways. But if we're assuming you'd build 5 manors off 700w then we should assume it the other way too. How else are we making a fair mathematical comparison? After all, from 700w you wouldn't build 5 manors.


You are making the claim in twitch chat and also repeated in your first paragraph here that "It came to the point where I stated that even if you would make 5 manors off the 700w (disregarding that there are better options) it would still be better." I am refuting that point.

This was a minor argument I was making anyways but if I'm countering your claim it's perfectly valid to suggest a build that sends 5 vil first and then uses 700w on production/units to create a timing that a 700w first build can not hit if it is spent all on manors. It is completely fair.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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03 Dec 2017, 22:00

WickedCossack wrote:Now rather than saying "about 200" can you specifically explain where that figure 200 comes from and why the calculations I typed above are incorrect.
The difference at 6:27 plus the gained VS from 5v arriving 30s before that. 250 assuming vills gather perfectly efficiently. I don't know where your math is incorrect, but the sim shows it is.

As for the reinvestment, the only opportunity that I can see is significant enough to make up for the XP deficit would be minutemen in a scenario where you're being rushed. If you want to add a manor you need to do it after the stable, in which case you are finishing it barely before the 700w build would be able to make a similar reinvestment of the resources that it is winning from the earlier 5v compared to your later 700w, which you are building 5 manors from.
Do we need all 5 huss? When exactly do we need them? Knowing this I can make tweaks to the builds and add manors where possible.

You are making the claim in twitch chat and also repeated in your first paragraph here that "It came to the point where I stated that even if you would make 5 manors off the 700w (disregarding that there are better options) it would still be better." I am refuting that point.
Right, the best case scenario for the 5v build. But if you're arguing you aren't bound to making 5 manors from the 700w that arrives after the 5v, that's not a fair comparison. I would then not be bound to send 5v, and would send 700c instead. But then it becomes impossible to compare.

This was a minor argument I was making anyways but if I'm countering your claim it's perfectly valid to suggest a build that sends 5 vil first and then uses 700w on production/units to create a timing that a 700w first build can not hit if it is spent all on manors. It is completely fair.
No, because if we're doing a timing then I wouldn't send 5v at all. I figured we'd eventually end up here so you're just going to have to give me an exact scenario where you would make military buildings off 700w, send 5v first, and cav start. And then tell me what timing you want. I'll give you an alternative that has the same number of units out at that game time with a better economy.

"It came to the point where I stated that even if you would make 5 manors off the 700w (disregarding that there are better options) it would still be better." I am refuting that point.
Like I said it wouldn't always be better, though I'm having a hard time thinking of a scenario where it wouldn't be. If that's your entire point I agree with you, but it would still be nice if you gave me an exact scenario where you think the 5v is superior.
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03 Dec 2017, 23:30

The difference at 6:27 plus the gained VS from 5v arriving 30s before that. 250 assuming vills gather perfectly efficiently. I don't know where your math is incorrect, but the sim shows it is.


I'll suggest that your program is wrong then or more likely neglecting something.

I did see one mistake I made in that your program suggest that 3 vils are built after 30s and 2 after 40s, whereas I had it the otherway around. I'd suggest those numbers are almost impossible to hit in a real game however, but either way I'll take it into account.

Unless I'm being super obtuse, and looking over the numbers I really don't think I am, the 3 differences in VS would be:

Time taken to pick up crates: 84 VS Crates pick up at 8res per second which in game works out to be 12s per 100res. 12 x 7 = 84
Time taken to build 5 manors: 20x5 = 100 VS
Time that the 5 vils from the 5vilfirstplayer are gathering before the 5 vils from 700wfirstplayer are spawned from manors: 30x3 + 40x2 = 170 VS

Total 354 VS


All of those actions are completed within 40 seconds hence the 700w build is 354 VS down at this time compared to the 5 vil build.

There's nothing incorrect about that as far as I can see. If someone can point out a flaw here then please do! Otherwise I absolutely don't believe the numbers you are telling me that you are getting from your program or interpreting from it or what.

Your program still also ignores re-investment which is a big crux of my argument further increasing the VS difference.

The rest of your comments are just talking abut strategy based on, as far as I can see, bad numbers from your program so we can't really begin to discuss those and look at what builds/timings are possible unless we are clear on the mathematical difference to begin with.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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03 Dec 2017, 23:49

One thing is the 25 wood you are left with after spending 135 * 5 = 675 from the 700, so that's -50 making 304. I don't know about the rest. I would go in and debug the app but that feels like a waste of time over something like this, as whatever the result won't make 5v a viable first card as Brit anyway.
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Great Britain WickedCossack
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03 Dec 2017, 23:54

Goodspeed wrote:One thing is the 25 wood you are left with after spending 135 * 5 = 675 from the 700, so that's -50 making 304. I don't know about the rest. I would go in and debug the app but that feels like a waste of time over something like this, as no amount of gained VS will make 5v a viable first card as Brit anyway.


Oh sure my bad there's always something to miss out. Don't forget gangsaw though, only 44 vs. So ~ 310.

310 is enough to be viable in certain situations, still quite a high number that grows on re-investment. Still ~ 170w so a manor, vil, xp and spare.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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04 Dec 2017, 00:00

It's not that high of a number, assuming it's correct. If we start comparing cav starts with more defensive starts and shoving VC in there we'll be seeing much higher numbers than that.
certain situations
Like?
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04 Dec 2017, 00:04

I've said this before, but sending 5v first is not about the FIRST batch of cav, it's about the 2nd. It's a lot harder to get 5 huss out on the second batch if you start 700w (not sure if it's possible, actually; unless you delay your 2nd batch for a few seconds). With 5v first you can get 5 huss 5 huss pretty easily.

Also I want to point out a small inefficiency in your BO. You should never build a market as your first building in transition—and should also never research gang saw—unless you plan to continue gathering a significant amount of wood in early Colonial. Instead, you should construct the market as your final building in transition, so I usually do 3 manors + market + HD before I age, sometimes 2 manors + Market + HD + Steel Traps depending on treasures. This does delay your stable by a few seconds sometimes, but still much better than getting the market and gang saw early.

I actually had not considered the fact that the player with 700w will end up being temporarily up in vills (assuming they send 5v second), but it seems to me that the total VS should end up being roughly equal with the 5v player having 1-2 more huss out on the 2nd batch.

Is the difference in the time it takes for the 2nd shipment to arrive really that big? I feel like it should be smaller than that.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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04 Dec 2017, 00:06

Well if we're talking real games no one would spend their 700w on 5 vills, so none of it applies really. We were just getting pretty deep into a technicality.

What does the 2nd batch of cav realistically do for you here? In what scenario would this be preferable over a boom build or an infantry start? What timing are you trying to hit?
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Great Britain WickedCossack
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04 Dec 2017, 00:06

Idk 310 seems pretty huge to me. Not to mention the extra villager + vs from that.

As for builds I'd assume it would be best around game plans where you spend 1-2mins doing full eco or almost full eco (like 5 cav) into 700w and full production and exploiting the VS difference to make a timing that VC or 700w can't match. You could possibly eco for a bit longer aswell and hit some later timings.
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Great Britain WickedCossack
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04 Dec 2017, 00:08

Mitoe wrote:Is the difference in the time it takes for the 2nd shipment to arrive really that big? I feel like it should be smaller than that.


Yea it's considerably smaller.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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04 Dec 2017, 00:09

135 xp is fairly big yeah. It's less if you find treasures. The huss batch is the only reason it's 30 seconds and not a full minute. The shipment after this is also slowed.
But again, none of it's relevant since no one in their right mind would spend 700w on 5 manors.
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Great Britain WickedCossack
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04 Dec 2017, 00:16

It's way less than 30 seconds but your build operates in a vacuum. You can just look at your logs and see where the shipment is ticking over at 5:27 due the 5 manors completing. Early game xp gains will blow this out the water.
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Canada Mitoe
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04 Dec 2017, 00:21

Well, starting cav gives you a couple of advantages over starting infantry: namely mobility and map pressure.

The first situation I can think of where cavalry is potentially stronger than infantry is a situation in which your opponent is trying to do a large TP boom, like on High Plains for example. The early cav will allow you to more easily deny trading posts by hunting down the enemy explorer while also defending raids without too much trouble; and once you manage to kill off a couple of the enemies cav (or even if you don't kill any) you have the option to provide counter-pressure to the opponent's villagers. A similar situation to this one would be against Portugal, where you can use the hussar mass to defend his hussar and then force his 3rd TC into an awkward position when he hits Fortress before following him up yourself.

Another situation would be against a civ like Germany (this was actually the original reason I started doing this build). British age up earlier and starting cav can give you a nice early timing against the early Uhlan mass. If they send their first 2 uhlans across the map you'll already have 5 huss to potentially catch them mid-map. Once they have 7-9 uhlans you will already have 10 hussar. By the time they have a large enough cavalry mass to harass you, you should have your rax up, around 14-15 huss with 1-2 more in queue and the potential to mix in some pikes or musketeers to round out your composition while he tries to age and you counter-pressure. The hussar mean he has to stay on top of his unit control a lot more than if he's playing against infantry, and give you a lot more opportunities to outplay your opponent.

Besides, if you start infantry you're a lot more likely to suffer villager idle time from running from raids as your infantry won't always be able to cover exposed vills on some maps.

You're right that starting infantry has the potential to result in a larger economy and better mid-game timings as a result, but it often forces you to play reactively and passively a lot of the time; which gives your opponent a lot of freedom to do whatever they wish.

Put simply, hussar just gives you a lot more versatility with your military in the early game, and while not strictly better on paper will often pay off through punishing the mistakes or greed of your opponent rather than through raw economic potential like an infantry start.



All of that being said, I actually don't do the 5v build much anymore unless I know I'll be able to get steel traps before I begin training hussar. Otherwise unless you intend to use that 2nd or 3rd batches of hussar aggressively 700w is often better because you can grab those market upgrades while also mixing in a 2nd military building earlier. I think the matchup where 5v is most effective is probably vs German or Port (or possibly Dutch), where the extra cavalry actually give you the greatest opportunity to punish the opponent's mass/boom/strategy. This does not mean I won't start cav if I'm starting with 700w, I think cav is often still great early on, even if others may not agree.
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04 Dec 2017, 00:36

@WickedCossack If you're gaining XP early, you can tweak your build so that you don't rely on the huss batch for your next shipment. The 700w build has the luxury of doing this, the 5v build does not because it relies on this huss batch either way. With enough XP gain, the 5v build gains the shipment at 5:16 (assuming immediate building of the stable and immediate training of huss). The 700w build can delay the stable and still reliably get the shipment at 5:16.
Anyway, don't forget after your second card you're still down 135 XP.

That all is IF the 700w is all spent on manors which, I think it's about time we just moved on from that.


@Mitoe You're right about gang saw it shouldn't be in there, I loaded the start from a template which includes gang saw because I usually chop a lot more wood than is chopped in this build :P
Well, starting cav gives you a couple of advantages over starting infantry: namely mobility and map pressure.
Right. But that play style isn't playing to Brit's strengths.
I see your point about early map presence and aggressive play. That gives you initiative and more opportunities to outplay. It also gives your opponent more opportunities to make mistakes. While I respect that as a play style, I always like to assume perfect play from both sides and find what the best build is in that situation. On the highest levels of play, people are going to adapt to your cav start perfectly and inefficiencies in your build ARE going to get punished. And the data shows that Brit's manor boom is simply too strong to pass up.

You mentioned a couple of match ups where it might be good.

In the case of Ports, it's impossible to lose if you simply max manors and age. Port has no hope of punishing your boom. It's a counter civ though so it may very well be just as impossible to lose by starting cav.

In the Dutch MU by booming you end up with about the same economy as them but your boom is so much cheaper that you enter fortress age with a lot of initiative and a timing with 2 falc that they can't hold. Plus infantry is just a better way to go against Dutch in general since they don't have an effective counter to longbows.

Against Germans it feels wrong because you're playing their game. Germans want to be in early colonial cav wars (although maybe not as much now because huss take 1 less hit to kill an uhlan). They'll send 3 dopps or some shit and age up. They have the fast age and you don't, and I feel like you're setting yourself up to be in a game where you are an age down and find yourself with not enough of an eco lead to overcome that.
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