MU of the week: Aztec versus Ottoman on Baja California

[[Armag] diarouga]

Aztecs are good when fighting against a water boom, because their canoes indeed rek every warship, but their water boom isn't good for several reasons.
1) Even if their canoes are good against warships, they suck vs land units. It means you have to rely fully on your land army to hold the timings, which you can't, while any other water boom has caravels to defend.
2) You don't have the fast age up for the 3rd age (unless you go for the slow age up in which case you won't have the 10wp and it's going to suck)
3) Your units are good when massed, but bad if you only have a few.
Maces for example are great cost-effectively, but unlike skirms, they don't have a great range, and you won't get an insane value from them by hit and running the opponent.

As a result, the aztec water boom isn't a good water boom. Viable but nowhere near the Port water boom. And vs otto these weaknesses get even worse.

1) Canoes are bad vs units, but if you're facing a musk/huss army, you can still use them to move your vills or your units to escape. Against otto you can't, because abus with their range and their insane damage will kill your canoes.
2) There's no way you will age and survive against a fast fortress, because you don't have the fast age up, so you're just going to die against the falc timing.
3)You're going to get outmassed, so it will be no big deal for your opponent to kill your docks with jan/abus (and you can't do shit since canoes suck vs abus, and there's no way you're going to have enough maces/coyotes to deal with his army if you invest resources in a water boom) and then kill your remaining fishing boats with 2 boats.
And they will have a safe 3 TP economy.

All in all, you'll get molested by a ff, by a jan/abus, and jan/huss is the best you can hope, but you'll die if your opponent is smart enough to add some abus or age for 2 falcs.

[Garja]

1) Yes but it doesnt matter because Aztecs can water boom while making units. In fact the counter to Aztec water is not to rush them. And if preceded by 10wp even less.
2) Yes you don't have the fast age up and that's a limit (of the WP strat in general). However, exactly because you have huge eco (the more time you're given the more ups you squeeze in, such as 2nd tier wood up) you can fight one age behind and then age up when you feel you can.
3) The huge eco is meant to allow big unit spam and combined with 10WP you can spam them almost instantly. Multiple WHs and warrior spam take care of the rest of the defensive part.

1) True, but irrelevant because you're not going to need warships.
2) FF is not a problem, I won against that even without the water eco. FF isn't that scary with the WP dance because you can always sac something for 2 cannons and after that Otto only have another shoot at winning which is with mams and you should be able to take care of.
3) You are not really going to be outmassed by an FF and hardly outmassed per se even in colonial. If anything you're going to somewhat lack coyote spam for a while and that could potentially be a problem if the Otto player mixes huss and abus well. Then again with 10 wp you just spam warriors at abus and make use of WHs and TC vs huss. If sure of colonial play you could even counter it with the Town dance card.

Anyway defending vs stuff is really a matter of skills and civ knowledge in the end. It's not like you just execute the build and you're in a winning position.

[[Armag] diarouga]

1) You can water boom while making units, but not enough to deal with a jan/abus or a ff, because you need a big amount of mace/coyote to kill the jan/abus army, else you get hit and run'd and it snowballs from there. Getting away with a 10wp boom is not easy against colonial play (it works, but you'll need to defend well), so you won't get away with both a wp boom AND a water boom, it's one or the other, and the wp boom is better.
2) Yes of course, you can 10wp boom, then water boom, while holding the otto timings because you have units and age behind this xD. Come on, that doesn't make sense, you can't have it all.
3) If you go for the 10 wp build, you'll have your 10 wp and your rax+houses up at 6min15. At 6min30 you get your first batch (and you have no wood left coz you spent it all in houses/rax/units), which means you can't start your water boom before the 600w shipment, ie 7min30. How are you going to have a huge eco when the otto timing comes (8-10 min depending on the timing), if you start at water boom at 8min lol? You'll have 4 boats when your opponent's army will come, and you'll wish you had sent 10maces and made 5 more coyotes instead of a dock and 4 boats.
"Multiple WHs". You don't have infinite wood caria, you just can't build multiple WHs, while making units, while making boats. And a wh is more than 3 boats btw, so if you build more than one, it will slow your boom by a lot. And falcs will WHs btw.


1) You are lol. You'll need to deal with the 2 vels (so at least 6canoes=600w on top of your 150 boats and 300 WHs, that's a lot of wood). And these canoes will be useless for the rest of the game

2) You played with noobs if you won vs a ff with a water ff.

3) How do you spam warriors if your opponent is killing your docks far from your TC? And 6 warriors+a few maces are not going to stop 30jans/20abus from killing you, be realistic.
"Town dance card" lol, the otto guy is just going to burn your firepit xD.

Yea, defending is a matter of skill, and with good defensive skills you can get away with greedy eco builds such as the 10 wp boom. It's just impossible to hold otto with a 10wp+water boom however, regardless of the defensive skill.

[Garja]

I build 2 docks from 700w and spam boats without any WH. if 5-10 units come in that time frame I use warriors and TC. Also can 10 mace after 700w and chop wood instead (in fact you dont need all vills on food after a while because there are fishing boats doing that). You forget the 2WH card which is about 550w (considering building time).
With WP boom and eventually several WHs you can go pretty much pure maces which with attack dance (10wp+3v) and buildings deal well vs jan abus and even 3 huss (they can get sniped very easily).
This is roughly the tecnique and I didn't even consider walls because I don't like them.

3) How do you spam warriors if your opponent is killing your docks far from your TC? And 6 warriors+a few maces are not going to stop 30jans/20abus from killing you, be realistic.
"Town dance card" lol, the otto guy is just going to burn your firepit xD.

Why should otto even be sieging the docks lol. That just gives you time. 30 jan 20 abus is like 11 min stuff. At 8 min you can have 15-20 jan 10 abus 3 huss max. 9-10 min timing is scarier because it coms with a dozen of huss for which you need proper anticav but by that time your setup is done and you should have everything to face that.

[n0el]

Seems like kynesie water alot on this map. Is it the map or aztec specifically going water on this map

taking kynesie into account when determing if its a water map or not is pretty silly. This guy even tries to water boom on the little ponds in great plains

tru

[[Armag] diarouga]

I build 2 docks from 700w and spam boats without any WH.

Ok so no units until 7min30? And you'll deal with 15jans/10huss with mm, sure.

if 5-10 units come in that time frame I use warriors and TC. Also can 10 mace after 700w and chop wood instead (in fact you dont need all vills on food after a while because there are fishing boats doing that). You forget the 2WH card which is about 550w (considering building time).

That won't be enough.

With WP boom and eventually several WHs you can go pretty much pure maces which with attack dance (10wp+3v) and buildings deal well vs jan abus and even 3 huss (they can get sniped very easily).
This is roughly the tecnique and I didn't even consider walls because I don't like them.

3) How do you spam warriors if your opponent is killing your docks far from your TC? And 6 warriors+a few maces are not going to stop 30jans/20abus from killing you, be realistic.
"Town dance card" lol, the otto guy is just going to burn your firepit xD.

Why should otto even be sieging the docks lol. That just gives you time. 30 jan 20 abus is like 11 min stuff.

Totally wrong. Try again to give me a reasonable time, else I'll just provide a record game showing it is definitely not 11 min.

At 8 min you can have 15-20 jan 10 abus 3 huss max. 9-10 min timing is scarier because it coms with a dozen of huss for which you need proper anticav but by that time your setup is done and you sh

ould have everything to face that.
At 9 min you have fucking nothing, provide a rec.

[Garja]

I think you're missing the fact that with 10WP and 2 WH you can spam units all at once basically. And then use infinite warriors or attack dance.
I will make a rec maybe this weekend with the overall build idea.

[deleted_user0]

Seems like kynesie water alot on this map. Is it the map or aztec specifically going water on this map

taking kynesie into account when determing if its a water map or not is pretty silly. This guy even tries to water boom on the little ponds in great plains

underrated post D

[P i k i l i c]

Can't wait for 456 (Aztecs) Vs diarouga (Ottomans) - ESOC Baja California.age3yrec