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Canada Mitoe
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27 Sep 2016, 00:38

I was inspired by @SirCallen to finally write a guide. It ended up being quite a bit longer than I had at first intended, so it's currently incomplete. I don't have the motivation to finish it all at once at the moment, so I figured I'd just post what I have so far and finish the rest over the course of the week, probably like 1 section a day or something.

You'll have to forgive me for some of the long-winded explanations in the introduction. This is a rough draft, and I stole a lot of it from a larger GoodSpeed-esque guide I had tried to write at some point earlier this summer (which I quickly gave up on, because it takes too long to go into detail on everything, and I can't be bothered to be concise), so parts of it may also be a bit out of date with what I currently think. I will likely edit parts of it in the future too.

Contents
1.0 - Introduction
1.1 - Deck
2.1 - Crates
2.2 - Discovery Age Planning
3.1 - Basic FF and Semi-FF Builds*
3.2 - Basic Colonial Builds*
4.0 - Match-up Descriptions (RE & EP)*

* = Incomplete
1.0 - Introduction
Germany has one of the strongest early and mid-game economies in the game. However, they don't have the greatest of crate spawns in the world, and this can limit them somewhat in the Discovery Age. Germany is, after all, a very shipment reliant civ, and they would love to grab that trading post as early as possible, but sometimes they may handicap themselves with a bit of idle time on their age up, or sometimes even by training an extra villager. For the most part, though, the pros of the early trading post greatly outweigh the cons, so this (usually) doesn't hurt them too much.

Germany's strength, however, lies not in their economy, but their mid-game military potential. A German in the fortress age with a few shipments in is a scary opponent for any civilization.

In the past, the backbone of this army was usually the Uhlan, which Germany tends to mass at all points in the game, pretty much regardless of the situation. The mass of Uhlans would become so large that it often ends up becoming their anti-cav as well. This applies mostly on RE patch, where the majority of Germany's games are won from overwhelming their opponents' armies in early-mid fortress with a large mass of Uhlan/Skirm while still forcing the enemy off of hunts and mines on the side with a couple of spare Uhlans.

On the current version of the ESOC Patch (3.0) Uhlans have -5hp in Colonial (-6hp in total in Fortress), and are just slightly weaker than they used to be. Skirm/Uhlan is still quite strong, and works most of the time. Germany players need to be careful not to overdo it, though, as their frontline is slightly softer than before. Good scouting and adaption will usually compensate for this nerf and still lead to a win if done well, but the German army is not quite as overwhelming as on RE Patch.

Strengths
Unlike Germany's most comparable counterpart, France, whose strength relies on them being above-average at nearly everything while excelling at none, Germany does a few things really well while still remaining average or even below-average at others. The things they do well in, however, they usually do far better than any other civ.

Spoiler


Weaknesses
Spoiler


1.1 - Deck

Image

This is the deck I use in the majority of my games. The only cards I would consider swapping around are Heavy Infantry Hitpoints or 2 SW in age 2 for something like 5 uhlan, 700f, or 2 caravels, and maybe 1000c for a frigate or 5 dopps depending on the matchup. But for the most part these cards aren't really interchangeable.

You can also swap out 2 heavy cannons for an age 1 or age 4 card of your choice. Whichever card you choose is honestly not likely to see the light of day, however, so it doesn't really matter much.

2.1 - Crates

Germany has 5 possible crate spawns, 3 with 300f and 2 with 200f. You have some options depending on which it is.

In general the rule of thumb is to get either a TP or a market from your starting crates if possible.

300f 200w - Ideal crate spawn. Build a TP and move all 3 SWs to wood until you have wood for your house, then to food.
300f 100w - Market start usually, unless early wood/food treasures help you grab a TP. Can chop 200w for a TP in some matchups, but risks aging later.
300f 100w 100c - Same as above.
200f 200w - TP start. Perfect vill spread is 1 SW to food, 2 to wood. 1st vill goes to food. When the 2nd vill is about to pop move 1 of the 2 wood SWs to wood and the new vill to wood. You should get wood for your house without idle time and just in time for your shipment.
200f 100w 100c - Worst possible start. Market start if possible, but consider waiting until transition.

In some situations you may want to consider delaying your age up (18 pop instead of 17 pop) and chopping 200w for an early TP at the beginning of the game. For some semi and naked FF builds this is worth it, as the extra XP will really help with your early-mid Fortress powerspike. This is mostly matchup dependent, as there are some matchups (Russia, Otto) where you simply can't afford to age late.

2.2 - Discovery Age Planning
Spoiler


3.1 - Basic FF and Semi-FF Builds
**Special cases are matchups where the build may be effective but needs to be adapted into a different build depending on the information acquired by scouting.

Uhlan Semi-FF
Effective Against: France, British, China, German, Port, Dutch
Weak Against: India (Forward Agra), Aztec, Sioux
Acceptable Against: Japan, Spain
**Special Cases: Otto, Russia, Iroquois, India (In-Base Wonder)

Spoiler


2-TP Uhlan Semi-FF
Effective Against: British, China, Port, Dutch
Weak Against: India (Forward Agra), Otto, Russia, Iroquois, Aztec, Sioux, Spain, German? (<- Needs testing)
Acceptable Against: Japan, Aztec (FF or FI)
**Special Cases: India (In-Base Wonder)

Spoiler


Dopp/Uhlan Aggression & Semi-FF
Effective Against: German
Weak Against: India
Acceptable Against: France, British, China, Dutch, Spain
*Special Cases: Everything else

Spoiler


3 SW 700w Fast Fortress
Effective Against: China, Japan, British, France, India (In-Base Wonder), Spain
Weak Against: India (Forward Agra), Sioux, Aztec, Iroquois, Russia, German, Dutch
Acceptable Against: Port
**Special Cases: Otto, Japan (Club Rush), All-in Aggression

Spoiler


3.2 - Basic Colonial builds

Timing Push
Effective Against: Sioux
Weak Against: India, Port, German, Iroquois(?)
Acceptable Against: China, France, British, Japan, Aztec, Spain(?), Russia, Dutch
*Special Cases: Otto

Spoiler


Defensive Timing
Effective Against: Russia, Aztec
Weak Against: Semi-FFs
Acceptable Against: Forward bases in general
*Special Cases: Otto

Spoiler


4.0 - Match-ups
Aztec
Spoiler


British
Spoiler


China
Spoiler


Dutch
Spoiler


France
Spoiler


German
Spoiler


India
Spoiler


Iroquois
Spoiler


Japan
Spoiler


Ottoman
Spoiler


Portuguese
Spoiler


Russia
Spoiler


Sioux
Spoiler


Spain
Spoiler
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Canada _NiceKING_
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27 Sep 2016, 00:42

Looks awesome! GJ
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$5 coupon for UberEats: eats-albertl5322ui
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Bavaria Gichtenlord
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27 Sep 2016, 01:06

Happy Birthday, Mitoe! :lol:
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China fei123456
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27 Sep 2016, 01:20

does 200f 100w start really exist? in my memory german has "200f 100w 1random", and sometimes the map will give you an extra food crate (excluding deccan caro etc). so the poorest start should be 300f100w, not 200f100w.
It's already a war, and I have nothing to lose.
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Canada Mitoe
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27 Sep 2016, 01:22

Couprider wrote:does 200f 100w start really exist? in my memory german has "200f 100w 1random", and sometimes the map will give you an extra food crate (excluding deccan caro etc). so the poorest start should be 300f100w, not 200f100w.

You are correct actually, that was an oversight on my part. However, I would say the worst possible start in that case is 200f 100w 100c, not 300f 100w.
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Italy DaRkNiTe1698
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27 Sep 2016, 07:24

I am quite sure Germans wins vs Otto on RE Patch
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Netherlands edeholland
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27 Sep 2016, 08:39

DaRkNiTe1698 wrote:I am quite sure Germans wins vs Otto on RE Patch


Objectively they do not, just look at the stats. Otto can weaken Germany so much early on that they can't get a good fortress in my experience.
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Spain yoqpasa
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27 Sep 2016, 09:03

I honestly think Brits win Germans
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Spain yoqpasa
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27 Sep 2016, 09:04

DaRkNiTe1698 wrote:I am quite sure Germans wins vs Otto on RE Patch



No way :uglylol:
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Bavaria Gichtenlord
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27 Sep 2016, 09:21

yoqpasa wrote:I honestly think Brits win Germans

Shouldnt brit struggle vs a good fortress timing on a tp map?
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Spain yoqpasa
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27 Sep 2016, 09:34

Gichtenlord wrote:
yoqpasa wrote:I honestly think Brits win Germans

Shouldnt brit struggle vs a good fortress timing on a tp map?


British timing comes faster. Siege houses, tp and idle vills
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European Union jesus3
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27 Sep 2016, 11:03

now i'd like to see your odds for germany on Ep ...Kappa
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Italy DaRkNiTe1698
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27 Sep 2016, 11:08

German can hold a rush, they can raid effectively because maps on RE are bad, they can raid a lot actually. Mammelukes are the biggest problems but you can send black riders I guess. About abus, German has got many uhlans to send. Anyway this is a tough MU for both sides and it's pretty close I'd say. This is my opinion at least
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Germany lordraphael
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27 Sep 2016, 12:14

im curious if we are talkign about RE balance and RE maps or RE balance and EP maps. Because obviously this would influence balance greatly. Then there would also be the case that balance shifts significantly on water maps compared to land maps. For exmaple Germany should rape Port on RE balance and RE maps. They should still win with relative ease on EP maps, however on water maps a good Port water boom should be quite hard to handle for germany, making it Port favoured imo.
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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China fei123456
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27 Sep 2016, 12:16

Mitoe wrote:
Couprider wrote:does 200f 100w start really exist? in my memory german has "200f 100w 1random", and sometimes the map will give you an extra food crate (excluding deccan caro etc). so the poorest start should be 300f100w, not 200f100w.

You are correct actually, that was an oversight on my part. However, I would say the worst possible start in that case is 200f 100w 100c, not 300f 100w.

why? with 200f100w100g start i need 75g 50w to build a market and go hunting dog. with 300f100w i have to go age 2 without building anything, or build a market+hunting dog but age up with 18p (and reach colonial age at 5:00 or even later).
It's already a war, and I have nothing to lose.
----diarouga
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China fei123456
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30 Sep 2016, 13:39

hi it's weekend now and we're waiting for this!
It's already a war, and I have nothing to lose.
----diarouga
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Poland pecelot
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30 Sep 2016, 18:57

hype bump
My Tips of the Day and COMPSTOMP threads! Be sure to check out the ESOC Strategy Wall! :flowers:
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United States of America noissance
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05 Oct 2016, 17:36

is germantown farmers ever used in supremacy? it lets you replenish dead settler wagons
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Poland pecelot
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05 Oct 2016, 17:43

Kaiserklein wrote:
jamesmp98 wrote:I'm surprised Germantown Farmers has not ben mentioned. I was always told that was the German card to have.

In team you can use it, in 1v1 certainly not. It could be useful 1 game out of 1000, but you really need age 3 slots badly. That's the core of your build as germany, since you almost always age to fortress quite early.
If you could afford eco cards in age 3 anyway, you would put royal mint first, then refrigeration. German townfarmers would come very far behind that.

Even in 2v2 I wouldn't use it. Though in 3v3, you can use it sometimes.

I'd listen to this guy :!: @noissance
My Tips of the Day and COMPSTOMP threads! Be sure to check out the ESOC Strategy Wall! :flowers:
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France Kaiserklein
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05 Oct 2016, 19:47

DaRkNiTe1698 wrote:I am quite sure Germans wins vs Otto on RE Patch

No

yoqpasa wrote:I honestly think Brits win Germans

I think it was quite close in the other EP (=RE brits and germany on EP maps). Germany probably won by a bit. On the current EP it's definitely brit favoured though.

Couprider wrote:
Mitoe wrote:You are correct actually, that was an oversight on my part. However, I would say the worst possible start in that case is 200f 100w 100c, not 300f 100w.

why? with 200f100w100g start i need 75g 50w to build a market and go hunting dog. with 300f100w i have to go age 2 without building anything, or build a market+hunting dog but age up with 18p (and reach colonial age at 5:00 or even later).

Having only 200f hurts a lot, it means you have to actually gather food early on, instead of focusing on getting your market/TP up. Without good treasures, 200f 100g 100w is kinda a nightmare because of that, since you get hunt dogs really late, and you can't get a TP. 300f 100w at least lets you get a TP if you want (even though you'll be most likely to age late), or you can also age up 17 idleless, or build a market if you get a couple treasures (barely worse for market than 200f 100g 100w start).
tl;dr : having 300f is just much better because it's smoother.

Anyway, nice guide Mitoe ! I especially like the crates starts detail.
I just think your estimations for RE germany match ups is kinda optimistic though. Water maps hurt them a lot (and god knows in RE qs you get a lot of water maps), and low resources map (which ofc happen a lot too) tend to make civs like india, aztecs... much stronger, and I doubt germany wins in that case. I agree with your estimations if it's RE balance on EP maps though.
kickass_OP wrote:lbs vs cavs no is good

look wrote:Detail, garja was cattle for slaughter in my hands.

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Canada Mitoe
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05 Oct 2016, 21:33

Well I had actually finished a lot of this, but apparently the edits didn't go through when I hit submit :( So I'll have to rewrite it...

Think I'll have to take a break before going back to rewrite all that *sigh*

noissance wrote:is germantown farmers ever used in supremacy? it lets you replenish dead settler wagons

Not really. There's not much point in replenishing your settler wagons when you could just send 1000w and make 2 TCs instead. Settler Wagons are not really anymore valuable than 2 Settlers and they cost more, and shipping that card doesn't actually give you any value in terms of resources, so it's kind of just useless in supremacy.

kaiserklein wrote:I just think your estimations for RE germany match ups is kinda optimistic though. Water maps hurt them a lot (and god knows in RE qs you get a lot of water maps), and low resources map (which ofc happen a lot too) tend to make civs like india, aztecs... much stronger, and I doubt germany wins in that case. I agree with your estimations if it's RE balance on EP maps though.

It was kind of for EP maps I guess, but honestly I don't think it changes that much on MOST RE maps. Water is definitely beatable for Ger, and you don't need a lot of food to be strong. Not to mention your raids are more effective on low-resource maps which helps compensate a bit.

I think Germany has a lot of the tools to compensate in low-resource environments I guess. All they really need to be strong is a TP and access to 1-2 hunts and gold mines (not necessarily in their base, but close enough that an early fortress power spike will take control of them). They win most games before they get to use their 3rd mine on these sorts of maps because the opponent is forced out of their base quite early too, and the early fortress fights favour Germany pretty heavily on RE patch IMO.
Germany lordraphael
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05 Oct 2016, 21:56

Mitoe wrote:Well I had actually finished a lot of this, but apparently the edits didn't go through when I hit submit :( So I'll have to rewrite it...

Think I'll have to take a break before going back to rewrite all that *sigh*


noissance wrote:is germantown farmers ever used in supremacy? it lets you replenish dead settler wagons

Not really. There's not much point in replenishing your settler wagons when you could just send 1000w and make 2 TCs instead. Settler Wagons are not really anymore valuable than 2 Settlers and they cost more, and shipping that card doesn't actually give you any value in terms of resources, so it's kind of just useless in supremacy.

kaiserklein wrote:I just think your estimations for RE germany match ups is kinda optimistic though. Water maps hurt them a lot (and god knows in RE qs you get a lot of water maps), and low resources map (which ofc happen a lot too) tend to make civs like india, aztecs... much stronger, and I doubt germany wins in that case. I agree with your estimations if it's RE balance on EP maps though.

It was kind of for EP maps I guess, but honestly I don't think it changes that much on MOST RE maps. Water is definitely beatable for Ger, and you don't need a lot of food to be strong. Not to mention your raids are more effective on low-resource maps which helps compensate a bit.

I think Germany has a lot of the tools to compensate in low-resource environments I guess. All they really need to be strong is a TP and access to 1-2 hunts and gold mines (not necessarily in their base, but close enough that an early fortress power spike will take control of them). They win most games before they get to use their 3rd mine on these sorts of maps because the opponent is forced out of their base quite early too, and the early fortress fights favour Germany pretty heavily on RE patch IMO.
why dont you write it in word and copy it into it here. Youll spend a few mins formatting it but at least you all have it saved then. Thats how i did it at least when i wrote my wall of text.
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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New Zealand zoom
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05 Oct 2016, 22:42

Mitoe wrote:
Couprider wrote:does 200f 100w start really exist? in my memory german has "200f 100w 1random", and sometimes the map will give you an extra food crate (excluding deccan caro etc). so the poorest start should be 300f100w, not 200f100w.

You are correct actually, that was an oversight on my part. However, I would say the worst possible start in that case is 200f 100w 100c, not 300f 100w.
Is it possible for the random crate to be none?
sudmakmak wrote:This patch Keshik don't have buff anti cavalry = noob patch2.0
and don't have nerf hard japan = noob patch2.0
because all more noob player at this patch = noob logic.
or they maybe have boyfriend.(japanese boyfriend fuck your ass them)
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No Flag ovi12
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05 Oct 2016, 23:27

Kaiserklein wrote:Having only 200f hurts a lot, it means you have to actually gather food early on, instead of focusing on getting your market/TP up. Without good treasures, 200f 100g 100w is kinda a nightmare because of that, since you get hunt dogs really late, and you can't get a TP. 300f 100w at least lets you get a TP if you want (even though you'll be most likely to age late), or you can also age up 17 idleless, or build a market if you get a couple treasures (barely worse for market than 200f 100g 100w start).
tl;dr : having 300f is just much better because it's smoother.


If you're doing market 300f 100w is definately the worst by far, it's just less VS.

On 200f start I think if you had 1 SW and 1 vill it worked out perfectly so that you could quee vills so that you would neiter overgather or undergather food, which means that you got hunting dogs as fast as possible. But you have to get them ASAP, I would do

1) Shoot animal
2) Send a SW to animal, 2 to crates
3) Let vills come out to hunt and the 2 SW gather woo/coin and build the market
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France Kaiserklein
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06 Oct 2016, 09:35

ovi12 wrote:If you're doing market 300f 100w is definately the worst by far, it's just less VS.

On 200f start I think if you had 1 SW and 1 vill it worked out perfectly so that you could quee vills so that you would neiter overgather or undergather food, which means that you got hunting dogs as fast as possible. But you have to get them ASAP, I would do

1) Shoot animal
2) Send a SW to animal, 2 to crates
3) Let vills come out to hunt and the 2 SW gather woo/coin and build the market

300f 100w is a better start because it still gives you the option of aging up 17 idleless if you want to. Especially on some maps, where treasures suck, it's probably better to focus on aging up because without help from treasures you'd have too much idle time with market. With 200f 100g 100w, you would also have a ton of idle time if you market, but if you don't market you would still have idle time cause -100f. So 300f 100w = smoother age up without market.
300f 100w lets you also get an early TP if you want to. On some maps, basically, you won't miss xp even if you need to chop 100w before you build the TP (example : in-base GP TP, bottom kamchatka TP...), so it's still decent to take one ; plus with a significant wood or food treasure and/or livestock you can still age up 17 without too much idle time. You can't even dream of taking a TP on 200f 100w 100g however.
Then yeah, 200f 100w 100g is slightly better for market, but not that much : you have to chop 50w, mine 75g, gather 100f, instead of getting 150w 50g. In terms of VS, it's a 344 VS investment for the 100g start and 383 for the other one. And since you usually get hunt dogs much faster on 300f 100w (because you don't have to put vils on food early on) it kinda makes up for it.
So overall I'd rather have 300f 100w. Then again it depends a lot on the map.


Mitoe wrote:It was kind of for EP maps I guess, but honestly I don't think it changes that much on MOST RE maps. Water is definitely beatable for Ger, and you don't need a lot of food to be strong. Not to mention your raids are more effective on low-resource maps which helps compensate a bit.

I think Germany has a lot of the tools to compensate in low-resource environments I guess. All they really need to be strong is a TP and access to 1-2 hunts and gold mines (not necessarily in their base, but close enough that an early fortress power spike will take control of them). They win most games before they get to use their 3rd mine on these sorts of maps because the opponent is forced out of their base quite early too, and the early fortress fights favour Germany pretty heavily on RE patch IMO.


I think on some RE maps you auto lose on water in some match ups. Let's say you're playing NE, with all those chokes that can be guarded by warships, vs a civ like brits or ports. Honestly I don't think you should ever win. They just have better warships, or a free tc to guard the coast or whatever, and can wall up etc. The same goes on indochina, patagonia, hispaniola... And I'm not gonna list the other water maps like that, but there definitely are some others. The fact that walls have 3k hp doesn't help either.
You don't need a lot of food (even though you definitely need a decent amount, german units still do cost some food), but you need a lot of gold. Most maps have only 1 "safe" mine, and I put quotes because on some maps even your first and only mine isn't safe (example : on Andes or Painted desert, it's sometimes not even in your tc LOS). I think that hurts germany a lot, and sometimes hurts too much to win. Then sometimes just don't have gold mines on the map, like great lakes or NE if you get a bit mapscrewed. If the game lasts more than 15 min you're fucked. But anyway, my point is : germany does have some tools to defend rushes etc, and it certainly doesn't suffer from mapscrews as badly as for example ports or brits do, but imo they're still one of those civs that need a decent amount of safe resources to be viable, and also since they can't play colonial for too long they can't really grab a durable mapcontrol. You'll have to age up at some point in some match ups, and if you just get pushed while aging and don't have the minimum needed resources near your base you'll just get pushed off resources at that timing, and be imprisoned in your base and just most likely lose. And your shit bow pike army won't be able to hold that kind of push forever.
Though it's true that uhlan raids are cool yeah.

And don't get me wrong, I don't think germany is super bad on RE maps. Just that imo they don't beat aztecs or india on most maps, and they're far from 45% winrate vs otto or iro.
kickass_OP wrote:lbs vs cavs no is good

look wrote:Detail, garja was cattle for slaughter in my hands.

look wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

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