How strong is Spain

[iNcog]

diarouga seems legit to me

he was knocked out by nagayumi in the tournament, which is respectable

he had H20 quit aoe as well

very respectable track record, i'd say he's more than worth listening to

[princeofkabul]

hahaha this is nice.

I cant believe I''ve still yet to play diarouga

just prepare yourself when i get back to shape Mattyboy

[deleted_user0]

I''m not sure anymore

Well, even when i havent played much in over a year we have about 50/50 in rated games. I think that says enough.
Not that it matters, he seems like someone willing to learn and improve so no disrespect intended

Also i probably will never return to my old lvl, ive been winning most my games the past 2 years by strategy and counterstratting more than mechanics/apm. Tad made me so lazy :p

[Mimsy for President]

Well, even when i havent played much in over a year we have about 50/50 in rated games. I think that says enough.
Not that it matters, he seems like someone willing to learn and improve so no disrespect intended

I know what you mean but "different leagues" really ?

[deleted_user0]

Those werent my words. I havent played him enough to know how good he is or can be. And its irrelevant to me lol.

[Marco1698]

Given that Spain is the best civ on nilla, I don''t get why it would be extremely bad on TAD. These are the nerfs to Spain on TAD as far as I know:

1) Less xp needed on nilla for shipments
2) TP 200w as opposed to 250w
3) Unit shipments slightly worse

I''m gonna comment on all 3 nerfs which don''t seem civ breaking:

1) AFAIK the xp difference is only 2%, meaning on nilla spain needs 25% less xp for a shipment where on TAD it needs only 23% less. This seems very unnoticeable, only 2% difference. Most importantly, on both nilla and TAD you have 1 or 2 shipments ?ready once you hit up.?

2) People say that this is an indirect nerf because all civs can get a TP easier, but let''s be serious 50w is not that big of a big deal. 50w can easily be gained/lost for anybody by just having slightly better/worse vill micro, slightly better hunts, finding 1 additional treasure, or small things like that. And realistically it just helps the othe civs get up by a couple of seconds. Also, it helps Spain too just as much or even more, as for example?when youre getting musk-ruhed you are often just a few resources from being able to send mm.

3)?The shipemnt nerfs that I know of are 9, 8, 7, 6 rod shipments all re duced by 1, and 5, 4 lancers reduced by 1. 7 rods>6 rods doesn''t matter much since you can send 8 pike which are almost as good/better anyway. 5-->4 lancers and 9-->8 rods sucks, but I can''t see a situation occurring often where just 1 lancer or 1 rod decides a game. Also 4 lancers to 3 lancers doesn''t seem big anyway, since in 95% of games the game is usually decided by then.?


I don''t know much about nilla/pre-patch spain, but from what I''ve been told it was OP, and I just don''t see how these small changes can supposedly take it from being extremely strong down to the lowest level.

I think Spain does well in multiple matchups including (but not limited to) Dutch, China, Germany, Russia, and even vs a civ as strong as Brit.

it isn''t the best on nilla. A good janns rush would beat Spain no doubts

[Jaeger]

Given that Spain is the best civ on nilla, I dont get why it would be extremely bad on TAD. These are the nerfs to Spain on TAD as far as I know:

1) Less xp needed on nilla for shipments
2) TP 200w as opposed to 250w
3) Unit shipments slightly worse

Im gonna comment on all 3 nerfs which dont seem civ breaking:

1) AFAIK the xp difference is only 2%, meaning on nilla spain needs 25% less xp for a shipment where on TAD it needs only 23% less. This seems very unnoticeable, only 2% difference. Most importantly, on both nilla and TAD you have 1 or 2 shipments ready once you hit up.

2) People say that this is an indirect nerf because all civs can get a TP easier, but lets be serious 50w is not that big of a big deal. 50w can easily be gained/lost for anybody by just having slightly better/worse vill micro, slightly better hunts, finding 1 additional treasure, or small things like that. And realistically it just helps the othe civs get up by a couple of seconds. Also, it helps Spain too just as much or even more, as for example when youre getting musk-ruhed you are often just a few resources from being able to send mm.

3) The shipemnt nerfs that I know of are 9, 8, 7, 6 rod shipments all re duced by 1, and 5, 4 lancers reduced by 1. 7 rods>'6 rods doesnt matter much since you can send 8 pike which are almost as good/better anyway. 5-->'4 lancers and 9-->'8 rods sucks, but I cant see a situation occurring often where just 1 lancer or 1 rod decides a game. Also 4 lancers to 3 lancers doesnt seem big anyway, since in 95% of games the game is usually decided by then.


I dont know much about nilla/pre-patch spain, but from what Ive been told it was OP, and I just dont see how these small changes can supposedly take it from being extremely strong down to the lowest level.

I think Spain does well in multiple matchups including (but not limited to) Dutch, China, Germany, Russia, and even vs a civ as strong as Brit.

it isnt the best on nilla. A good janns rush would beat Spain no doubts

People from nilla say its really hard for spain but if you play it perfectly spain should be able to hold, i just saw this recently in a thread but dont remember which one. They also say Spain is a lot harder to play, but if you play it really well its better than otto on nilla.

[Durokan]

diarouga seems legit to me

he was knocked out by nagayumi in the tournament, which is respectable

he had H20 quit aoe as well

very respectable track record, i''d say he''s more than worth listening to

do you know what strats he was using?

[Marco1698]

it isnt the best on nilla. A good janns rush would beat Spain no doubts

People from nilla say its really hard for spain but if you play it perfectly spain should be able to hold, i just saw this recently in a thread but dont remember which one. They also say Spain is a lot harder to play, but if you play it really well its better than otto on nilla.

give a look at the first game of the finals pk clan tournament nilla. Garja played a lot of Spain and he has got so much experience with that civ. Same for shmras which is very good with Otto. Shmras doesnt rush but he wins still. Otto is better than Spain also if Spain plays correctly

[deleted_user0]

Nah, garja completely choked that series

Its close, but well played spain should beat well played otto

[Jaeger]

People from nilla say its really hard for spain but if you play it perfectly spain should be able to hold, i just saw this recently in a thread but dont remember which one. They also say Spain is a lot harder to play, but if you play it really well its better than otto on nilla.

give a look at the first game of the finals pk clan tournament nilla. Garja played a lot of Spain and he has got so much experience with that civ. Same for shmras which is very good with Otto. Shmras doesnt rush but he wins still. Otto is better than Spain also if Spain plays correctly

Check Umeus post above

[[Armag] diarouga]

Umeu, what was wrong in garja's play those games?

[deleted_user0]

Its a long time since ive seen the games but from what i remember he was too passive in the first otto spain and the 2nd otto spain he didnt execute the bo right. Didnt make dogs and couldve had 5 more musk if he didnt queu 2 vils in tc during his age up. Spain ff can overwhelm otto ff early on with 5 lancer 4 lancer 2 cannon and 7 rods in trans + 5 dog + 10 musk and 4 huss, they will rape the 4 abus 10 jans. And cuz u 15 into 16 ff ur age time is the same so u just have more units.

Vs jan rush u do the same but defensive tower.

[Garja]

No need to do gimmick build really.
Just go standard ff, probably 15v or 18v in colonial as you want a bit of speed, and otto don't really challenge your eco anyway. Then depending on what he does send either 5v 700w, cm or 6 rods after 700g.
Vs otto ff I would send 5v 700w and go naked ff, aging with 8 pikes. If he ages with 4 huss, then 5 dogs+ building placement (+ mm if he bring jans too) should be enough to hold any ballzy push. Then you just make skirms and send 2 cannons first, and then all your anticav shipments (just cuz u gotta be careful of later mams that come around 12 mins).

What you don't want is him having mass jans+mams+cannons because that's really strong of course. So you just bait with your army. You try to force cannon trade and then you poke with skirms to keep the army counts as low as possible (you have skirms vs jans all the time so you gotta use that advantage).
You are waiting for mams to come (can't prevent that). When it is time you micro skirms on jans (dont ever attack move, always kill 1 or 2 per volley) while u're kiting back. By that time you will have something like 30 pikes and 8 rods so really mams are not that scary. You lose perhaps 20-30 or even all your anticav but he essentially lose all the rest of his army to do that. And once mams are gone it is kinda downhill for spain, as you still have lot of bullets in ur deck and you have skirms which basically do well vs anything except cannons, mams and spahi, 2/3 of which he has already sent.
Also you want a stable after that either for lancers (he will try to switch to abus cuz jans cant win vs skirms) or for goons because spahi are still a threat (pikes/rods don't counter spahi very well but goons just rape them).
Just be methodic and it's an easy win.

Vs other otto strats you need other specific builds.

n.b. that's for nilla. On tad otto just rape spain lol

[[Armag] diarouga]

While we're talking about spain, I have hard time vs france, dutch and brit (on nilla), the semi musk fre seems to hold the falc push and then the french has a better eco and will outmass you. Vs brit it is the same, except that the brit stays age 2. And vs dutch, I don't know how to hold a skirm/huss+8pikes compo, it rapes the 2 falc push and then 5lancers aren't enough to balance the skirm count.

[Jaeger]

While we''re talking about spain, I have hard time vs france, dutch and brit (on nilla), the semi musk fre seems to hold the falc push and then the french has a better eco and will outmass you. Vs brit it is the same, except that the brit stays age 2. And vs dutch, I don''t know how to hold a skirm/huss+8pikes compo, it rapes the 2 falc push and then 5lancers aren''t enough to balance the skirm count.

Maybe push 1 shipment later vs dutch?

[deleted_user0]

No need to do gimmick build really.
Just go standard ff, probably 15v or 18v in colonial as you want a bit of speed, and otto don''t really challenge your eco anyway. Then depending on what he does send either 5v 700w, cm or 6 rods after 700g.
Vs otto ff I would send 5v 700w and go naked ff, aging with 8 pikes. If he ages with 4 huss, then 5 dogs+ building placement (+ mm if he bring jans too) should be enough to hold any ballzy push. Then you just make skirms and send 2 cannons first, and then all your anticav shipments (just cuz u gotta be careful of later mams that come around 12 mins).

What you don''t want is him having mass jans+mams+cannons because that''s really strong of course. So you just bait with your army. You try to force cannon trade and then you poke with skirms to keep the army counts as low as possible (you have skirms vs jans all the time so you gotta use that advantage).
You are waiting for mams to come (can''t prevent that). When it is time you micro skirms on jans (dont ever attack move, always kill 1 or 2 per volley) while u''re kiting back. By that time you will have something like 30 pikes and 8 rods so really mams are not that scary. You lose perhaps 20-30 or even all your anticav but he essentially lose all the rest of his army to do that. And once mams are gone it is kinda downhill for spain, as you still have lot of bullets in ur deck and you have skirms which basically do well vs anything except cannons, mams and spahi, 2/3 of which he has already sent.
Also you want a stable after that either for lancers (he will try to switch to abus cuz jans cant win vs skirms) or for goons because spahi are still a threat (pikes/rods don''t counter spahi very well but goons just rape them).
Just be methodic and it''s an easy win.

Vs other otto strats you need other specific builds.

n.b. that''s for nilla. On tad otto just rape spain lol

Its not a gimmick, you never understood that you dont lose vils if u macro right. U have 7,05 ff and keep making vils all the time. Its simply the best way to deal with otto who does any sort of build. Only ifu scout they jan abus u just send 5v instead of rods and mass a bit more skirs before pushing. Let tc fire do dmg.

Otto shouldnt even age 4 huss vs spain, dunno why u bring it up, it would be a poor choice vs notorious hi civ...

And lol assuming that 30 pike 9 rods will destroy mams is crazy... They will completely melt with 9 abus 40 vet jans behind the mams. Assuming cannon fight is a draw, the skirs will take too long to kill all jans anyway.

[Garja]

Well shmras and other otto dudes used to age with huss, that's why i bring it. I don't think 4 abus are particularly better btw. Skirms do kill abus too so I don't really see the point. And if you keep poking wiht skirms you don't get so outmassed so much that your 40 unit anticav squad cant kill 5 mams.
Also when you say 9 abus you're considering either one extra card or 8 less jans so again it means you don't get outmassed in infantry vs infantry which is key. With the build I mentioned you can also add a 2nd rax pretty quickly so you are making even more skirms than usual.

That aggressive ff thing is a gimmick to me just because I compare it with other standard ff builds. Is just way less eco and you're fighiting with the wrong units relying only in the perfect timing. Any pathing issue would auto kill that for example.
Also you said 10 jans and 4 abus vs 10 musks 5 dogs and 4huss. What if 10 jans 4 huss? I don't think 5 dogs cut it at all especially considering the jans are stronger than musks and you will be poking at his tower. You do want to trade armies but not with fighting with the wrong units.

[deleted_user0]

The point of 4 abus is that 9 abus one shot a cannon, giving otto a powerful weapon in the cannonfight. As well as that they pick off pikes and other stuff off fast. Obv its not to counter skirs.

Ur forgetting the 7 rods. If otto has 10 jans 4huss its insta gg. With abus he might stall long enough if pathing is bad for ur melee units. With huss no such chance. So i dont understand this wrong units thing, huss are to kill abus and slow, 5 dogs are also to kill abus, rods are there in case of 4 huss or otherwise to slow/tank in cover. The musk just for dpsimg down the jans who are being swarmed. When his 8 jans come, so do ur lancer and 5 skirs while he can only make more jans. U should place ur tower next to his btw, if possible.

Also the thing with 16v into 18v is that its much more vulnerable vs jan rush, and u have to choose 15 or 16v before u can scout him. If u 16v and he janrushes u, there is a good chance those 20 sec ur slower will get u killed, since this mu is about seconds really. And i dont see why relying on perfection is gimmicky, its actually the opposite. This strat doesnt rely on the otto player so much, what he does is largely irrelevant, it simply relies on superb execution of the spanish player, which is what i love sp much about spain.

Also dont think u need that many skirs, 25 is enough, and then vet rods spam. Also id rather add a stable than 2nd rax. But anyway im pretty sure most of the time this mu is decided before all that matters.

[Garja]

Well with 7 rod card and additional 5 dogs you have pretty much zero resource to spam skirms or w/e unit from rax. 10 musk and 5 dogs drain up all your res during transition that's for sure even with 5v. I suppose you're skipping market all together which helps in the very short term but not much in the long run. So again it only works in a pretty optimistic scenario in which you get op treasures.

[deleted_user0]

Nah lol, ive done this strat in testing without taking tres other than small tres in base. It just requires 1 good hunt and perfect macro. Yes ur skipping market, but this mu isnt a long term one, which you seem to think for some reason.

Spain can get 10 musk 5 dog np, just keep most of ur vils on food, untill u age and then u put like 7f 9c new vils to food. U should get 5 skir np, though after it might not be 5 which isnt that big of a deal. But most of the time u gonne get the good tres or livestock cuz ur spain so u can get that 5-5 skir

[Jaeger]

No need to do gimmick build really.
Just go standard ff, probably 15v or 18v in colonial as you want a bit of speed, and otto dont really challenge your eco anyway. Then depending on what he does send either 5v 700w, cm or 6 rods after 700g.
Vs otto ff I would send 5v 700w and go naked ff, aging with 8 pikes. If he ages with 4 huss, then 5 dogs+ building placement (+ mm if he bring jans too) should be enough to hold any ballzy push. Then you just make skirms and send 2 cannons first, and then all your anticav shipments (just cuz u gotta be careful of later mams that come around 12 mins).

What you dont want is him having mass jans+mams+cannons because thats really strong of course. So you just bait with your army. You try to force cannon trade and then you poke with skirms to keep the army counts as low as possible (you have skirms vs jans all the time so you gotta use that advantage).
You are waiting for mams to come (cant prevent that). When it is time you micro skirms on jans (dont ever attack move, always kill 1 or 2 per volley) while ure kiting back. By that time you will have something like 30 pikes and 8 rods so really mams are not that scary. You lose perhaps 20-30 or even all your anticav but he essentially lose all the rest of his army to do that. And once mams are gone it is kinda downhill for spain, as you still have lot of bullets in ur deck and you have skirms which basically do well vs anything except cannons, mams and spahi, 2/3 of which he has already sent.
Also you want a stable after that either for lancers (he will try to switch to abus cuz jans cant win vs skirms) or for goons because spahi are still a threat (pikes/rods dont counter spahi very well but goons just rape them).
Just be methodic and its an easy win.

Vs other otto strats you need other specific builds.

n.b. thats for nilla. On tad otto just rape spain lol

Its not a gimmick, you never understood that you dont lose vils if u macro right. U have 7,05 ff and keep making vils all the time. Its simply the best way to deal with otto who does any sort of build. Only ifu scout they jan abus u just send 5v instead of rods and mass a bit more skirs before pushing. Let tc fire do dmg.

Otto shouldnt even age 4 huss vs spain, dunno why u bring it up, it would be a poor choice vs notorious hi civ...

And lol assuming that 30 pike 9 rods will destroy mams is crazy... They will completely melt with 9 abus 40 vet jans behind the mams. Assuming cannon fight is a draw, the skirs will take too long to kill all jans anyway.

Um if you make only 1 vill in colonial tho you do have a lot of idle time? Like the vill takes 20 seconds to finish, and the 700g alone takes idk 30-40 seconds to come, and then u need time to pick it up. Sometimes when I get good treasures I can make 2 vills in colonial and still have 7:05, but usually not.

[Jaeger]

No need to do gimmick build really.

I thought 15 vills age 1 and make 1 in colonial is standard agressive ff tho? And if u want more eco u ship 5v? What else can be different besides early market?

[Jaeger]

Well with 7 rod card and additional 5 dogs you have pretty much zero resource to spam skirms or w/e unit from rax. 10 musk and 5 dogs drain up all your res during transition that''s for sure even with 5v. I suppose you''re skipping market all together which helps in the very short term but not much in the long run. So again it only works in a pretty optimistic scenario in which you get op treasures.

If you don''t go early market do you usually get it from 700w?

[deleted_user0]

Ye the 15>16 ff does have some idle time in colo, but if u have good tres and no slipups in macro then u can 17 and be as fast. Usually tho u either dont have the tres or made some macro mistakes so u cant 17v.

If u cant early market u usually make it with 700w but with the fast ff u cant early market even if 200w start. Better save it for less wood chop for tp and if u find wood tres, make a tp as well.