Donald Trump and Kynesie

[gibson]

Very True.

But also keep in mind that Bernie is just the left-wings Ron Paul. He got stuck on one issue 50 years ago and has covered his eyes and ears since then, using his pulpit and cult following to push simple/basic ideas to tackle complex problems. Ron Paul thinks that if the Fed and IRS were gone tomorrow, all injustice and malaise in the country would be taken care of by market forces. Bernie thinks that if you raise taxes on the rich tomorrow, the history of redlining, racism, sexism, aggressive foreign policy, broken immigration, climate change denial will cease.?

Bernie was flamed by idiots, but that doesnt mean he isnt an idiot himself. Frankly, it is not his ancient white maleness that hurts him (it actually helps him). Joe Biden fits a similar demographic mold but would easily be a better candidate because he wouldnt say the same thing to the same people for 50 years and call himself a progressive. Btw, look at Bernies rally pictures, they look exactly like Trumps and Ron Pauls crowds for a reason. He has simple/myopic ideas and passes them on as revolutionary. That just doesnt work. Both politically and in the real policy arena, in my opinion.?

He actually doesnt. In fact, he keeps underlining how common his ideas are in other developed countries where health care and education is already free. Socialism is nothing new and he knows it. For the US though, which is miles behind when it comes to economic reform and controlled by the rich, his ideas actually are revolutionary but he isnt the one calling them that.

He answers questions instead of evading them, he has a very on-the-right-side voting record in his career so far, and hes underlining important issues that nobody else seems to care about. But above all, he means to take the money out of politics and this, I personally believe and have believed for a while, is the only way politics can work as intended. Do you realise how messed up it is, and how detrimental to the political process, that legislation can literally be bought by throwing money at it?

Listening to him talk it became abundantly clear to me in a very short time that hes an intelligent man who got to where he is by sheer competence instead of playing the game, truly the contrast with some of the republican candidates that Ive heard speak is fascinatingly large. Hes also good at debates from what Ive seen and his message is already captivating much larger amounts of people than anyone expected. I think we could be in for a real surprise, he has an actual shot I think. Maybe Im overestimating people though.

You are overestimating people. Im gonna preach this everytime Bernie Sanders is brought up. He has no chance of winning with the current state of us politics. He has to many things going against him. First off, he is a non religious jew. America has never had a president who openly at least didnt claimed to be a Christian. This means that no conservative Christians will vote for him. He has run under the socialist party. Many ignorant people here associate socialism with communism. No one who remembers the 60s will vote for him because of the extremely negative association with communism. America hates communism with a passion. Google mccarthyism lol.

Hes old and ugly. Even though its not aconscious decision, People are much more attracted to attractive people. Hell even Donald trump and Hillary Clinton look like a god and goddess compared to him. He just doesnt have anything going for him, besides his actual ideas, which in my experience isnt enough to win an election sad as it is.

[Goodspeed]

What a colourful approach Dragon, and quite pointless as I'm sure you're aware. I wonder, has the author of that wall of text ever heard of paragraphs? Or common sense, for that matter.
Speculation about the downsides of a welfare state with higher taxes on the rich is quite outdated and could only work in a country like the US where egos are so inflated that people refuse to look at other, more succesful countries as an example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

[drac3130]

Bernie's platform on wealth equitability, healthcare access, etc. are all admirable. But my point is that he sees this as THE ultimate solution to everything. He see economic justice as the end all be all to a great society...much like a conservative sees economic capitalism as the best path toward all goodness in society.

The reason why Bernie does not draw minorities (and the reason why #blacklivesmatter attacks him) and very few women support him is simply because his whole platform revolves around economic equality, there are no social considerations because he thinks economics includes social considerations. The reason why I use the words "simple" to describe his mindset is because I honestly think he believes that if everyone in the country made $50k tomorrow through a radical redistribution of wealth, racism wouldn't exist, attacks on women's health rights wouldn't exist, climate change would be dealt with, people wouldn't be warmongerers with Iran, cops wouldn't kill minorities disproportionately, the media won't label every dead black person a thug on sight, etc. etc.

That's the point I am trying to make about Bernie. He's a Ron Paul figure that latches onto one message that addresses but one problem in society. He hurts progressivism/liberalism by condensing a philosophy that is supposed to be aware of the complexity in society to one that can be literally be replaced with the words and one policy: "Guaranteed minimum income". That is not a political philosophy, that is just slogan. Liberalism can't be condensed to one congressional bill that is Bernie's rally speeches in bullet point format.

Again, my opinion. I see why many people like him, just want to explain why many liberals don't like him that much and think he hurts the liberal cause. Also, I'm not saying Hillary is any better. The best American liberal in the political class right in my opinion is Elizabeth Warren because she has the populist appeal of Bernie but can actually talk about more than one thing.

Goodspeed: I noticed you are from the Netherlands. Studies have been done to show that Socialism in government is more difficult in America because of the heterogeneous population. Fact is, many people don't support welfare not because they think it's economically bad (because it simply isn't) but because they deep-down don't like the prospect of their tax dollars going to someone outside of their ethnic group. These are the types of problems Bernie ignores. And the long racial history of America among other things (including a Civil War fought to preserve it) that make the American march toward equality particularly more difficult than Bernie makes it seem.

[Goodspeed]

He actually doesnt. In fact, he keeps underlining how common his ideas are in other developed countries where health care and education is already free. Socialism is nothing new and he knows it. For the US though, which is miles behind when it comes to economic reform and controlled by the rich, his ideas actually are revolutionary but he isnt the one calling them that.

He answers questions instead of evading them, he has a very on-the-right-side voting record in his career so far, and hes underlining important issues that nobody else seems to care about. But above all, he means to take the money out of politics and this, I personally believe and have believed for a while, is the only way politics can work as intended. Do you realise how messed up it is, and how detrimental to the political process, that legislation can literally be bought by throwing money at it?

Listening to him talk it became abundantly clear to me in a very short time that hes an intelligent man who got to where he is by sheer competence instead of playing the game, truly the contrast with some of the republican candidates that Ive heard speak is fascinatingly large. Hes also good at debates from what Ive seen and his message is already captivating much larger amounts of people than anyone expected. I think we could be in for a real surprise, he has an actual shot I think. Maybe Im overestimating people though.

You are overestimating people. Im gonna preach this everytime Bernie Sanders is brought up. He has no chance of winning with the current state of us politics. He has to many things going against him. First off, he is a non religious jew. America has never had a president who openly at least didnt claimed to be a Christian. This means that no conservative Christians will vote for him. He has run under the socialist party. Many ignorant people here associate socialism with communism. No one who remembers the 60s will vote for him because of the extremely negative association with communism. America hates communism with a passion. Google mccarthyism lol. Hes old and ugly. Even though its not aconscious decision, People are much more attracted to attractive people. Hell even Donald trump and Hillary Clinton look like a god and goddess compared to him. He just doesnt have anything going for him, besides his actual ideas, which in my experience isnt enough to win an election sad as it is.

Agreed on most of that but the man is pulling massive crowds (bigger than any other candidate by a solid amount) and gaining ground on Clinton pretty rapidly. The thing is theres a difference between now previous election years: people are pissed off now, they are starting to understand that the system is broken and they dont feel represented. Hes telling them exactly why that is while proposing easy to understand and effective solutions. Trump is as big as he is for the same reason, except Trump is obviously not offering any solutions.
The only thing he truly has going against him is of course the fact that the disgustingly rich people, who control not only the government but the media as well, never want to see him in office.

[Goodspeed]

I mean we all know he has a bunch of stuff going against him but can we at least pretend that being right matters?

[drac3130]

Yeah, the fact that he has Jewish origins might actually be detrimental to his chances to get nominated. I think many people in America have started to change their attitudes on their relation with Israel in the last years. Even Bloomberg declined to seek nomination for presidential elections.

Also, his age won''t help. America hasn''t had an old president since Regan.

Politics relating to Jews is so weird in America. Conservative Republicans often are anti-semetic but are super pro-Israel. Most American Jews are Democrats. Most Democrats aren''t die-hard Israel fans.

Just another crazy thing on top of Trump only found in American Politics.

[Goodspeed]

Impressive how right-wing propaganda has made us all so weary of communism all we can do when we hear the word socialism is panic over the implied communism. Slowly but surely American politics moved from slightly off center to so far right nobody even knows how to find the left anymore without immediately associating it with communism.

[momuuu]

When was the last time you heard of something great coming out of Scandinavia? Last thing I''d want is to have half my income taken away to pay for low-quality government services while being jailed for the hate crime of beating up a Somali criminal. If you like your great Nordic model you can keep your great Nordic model. :coffee:

I read that finland has by far, like as in no contest, the best education in the world. That was a year ago I think.

Really... America is supposed to be great and all but they underperform when it comes to poverty rates, crime rates, education, healthcare, life expectancy, happiness, liberty, infrastructure and maybe more. That is, imo, the result of the ridiculous unfounded hating on socialism.

[momuuu]

I read that finland has by far, like as in no contest, the best education in the world. That was a year ago I think.

Really... America is supposed to be great and all but they underperform when it comes to poverty rates, crime rates, education, healthcare, life expectancy, happiness, liberty, infrastructure and maybe more. That is, imo, the result of the ridiculous unfounded hating on socialism.

Which one of these things is handled on the federal level?

all of them, except for happiness are directly related to things the dutch government interferes with. Which is why we do so much better at them really.

Let me try to get some actual sources aswell.

EDIT:
Life expectancy: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.LE00.IN
Poverty: http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=69
Education: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index
http://www.ncee.org/programs-affiliates ... countries/
Crime: http://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp
Happiness: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report
Liberty: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_ ... erty_Index

[drac3130]

The entire deep south with the exception of Texas and Florida are subsidized by the Northern states through the federal government. The standard in living in MS and AL and AK are barely that of the balkan countries. Without the redistribution of tax income through the federal government (via grants and other subsidies that do affect education), many of the states in the south would be nearing 3rd world status.

Fact is, America is a pseudo-socialist nation which is the only thing keeping it on its feet. And the states that advocate most for socialistic policies are by and far the least drain on resources in the country.

And you graph proves everyone's point. Why should a person born through coincidence in MS have a worse education than someone born in MA....isn't this the UNITED States of America in which all citizens have equal opportunity?

It doesn't help the non-government meddling platform by proving how there are states in the USA that are doing worse off than states in Eastern Europe that have gone through the horrors of full Communism. And those states are the most anti-socialist states as well.

[gibson]

I wonder if I'm going crazy or if a stopped clock is right twice a day but I find myself agreeing with dragon. The US is incredibly large both in terms of population and geographically which leads to people in different areas being as different from each other is if they were from different (albeit neighboring) countries. Increasing what the federal government does is not the answer as they will try to fit one solution on everybody.

[Mr. Pecksniff]

I wonder if I''m going crazy or if a stopped clock is right twice a day but I find myself agreeing with dragon. The US is incredibly large both in terms of population and geographically which leads to people in different areas being as different from each other is if they were from different (albeit neighboring) countries. Increasing what the federal government does is not the answer as they will try to fit one solution on everybody.

It''ll be harder to agree with him once he starts giving us his wacky interpretation.

[momuuu]

I wonder if I''m going crazy or if a stopped clock is right twice a day but I find myself agreeing with dragon. The US is incredibly large both in terms of population and geographically which leads to people in different areas being as different from each other is if they were from different (albeit neighboring) countries. Increasing what the federal government does is not the answer as they will try to fit one solution on everybody.

they should increase what the entire government does. The cities here have large roles in education and healthcare aswell. The central government just comes up with the general outline of it.

[gibson]

I wonder if Im going crazy or if a stopped clock is right twice a day but I find myself agreeing with dragon. The US is incredibly large both in terms of population and geographically which leads to people in different areas being as different from each other is if they were from different (albeit neighboring) countries. Increasing what the federal government does is not the answer as they will try to fit one solution on everybody.

they should increase what the entire government does. The cities here have large roles in education and healthcare aswell. The central government just comes up with the general outline of it.

yes the state government should be responsible for just about everything that happens in each state. They should be getting most of the money rather then the federal government

Like in Tennessee where I live they just passed a bill that the first two years of college will be free for people going to community college. This would have never happened through the federal government.

[Good ol Ivan]

What a colourful approach Dragon, and quite pointless as I''m sure you''re aware. I wonder, has the author of that wall of text ever heard of paragraphs? Or common sense, for that matter.
Speculation about the downsides of a welfare state with higher taxes on the rich is quite outdated and could only work in a country like the US where egos are so inflated that people refuse to look at other, more succesful countries as an example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

Nordic countries aren''t rich because they are welfare states. They are welfare states because they are rich enough to afford it.

[momuuu]

Isnt norway rich because they have oil?

[momuuu]

I thought I read somewhere that norways has millions for every inhabitant in the bank from oil money, but refuses to spend it so that they can use it during rough times.

[momuuu]

Im not sure if it is a bad thing to spend some money now. Its been rough economically speaking, at some point therell be better times and they will be able to refill it again. To say that they cant maintain the welfare state is ridiculous though, at least at this very moment.

[gibson]

Fun fact : the good ole US of A is the highest "producer" of oil

[Mimsy for President]

Fun fact : the good ole US of A is the highest "producer" of oil

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_production#Countries

or I missed something ?

[Goodspeed]

What a colourful approach Dragon, and quite pointless as Im sure youre aware. I wonder, has the author of that wall of text ever heard of paragraphs? Or common sense, for that matter.
Speculation about the downsides of a welfare state with higher taxes on the rich is quite outdated and could only work in a country like the US where egos are so inflated that people refuse to look at other, more succesful countries as an example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

Nordic countries arent rich because they are welfare states. They are welfare states because they are rich enough to afford it.

And the US isnt rich? Lets face it, the US is spending outrageous amounts of money on defense and they could be taxing the rich a whole lot more than they are now. The money is there, its just being spent wrong and not enough of it is finding its way into the hands of the government.

Anyway, Im sure as hell not getting into the left versus right debate again. None of it even matters, really. There is 1 issue that needs to be solved ASAP because its shitting all over the political process. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political ... _committee

In the United States, a political action committee (PAC) is a type of organization that pools campaign contributions from members and donates those funds to campaign for or against candidates, ballot initiatives, or legislation.

How are these things allowed to exist, even though Im sure the vast majority of Americans would be firmly against it? Ill tell you how: Votes dont matter, only money does.

Sanders is the only one not participating in this and even plans to solve it, and it should be obvious to everyone that a democracy can never work as long as politicians and even legislation can be bought this way. Fix this first, then well talk about socialism and whether or not it would work in the US. After all, while it isnt fixed the only thing that matters is whether your legislation helps the rich, not whether it helps the country as a whole.